Gaddafi Phony Welfare State Unmasked

Uri Avnery – Bury Gaddafi’s Myths with Gaddafi, & Good Riddance

by  Jim W. Dean, VT Editor              …featuring  Uri Avnery,  Gush Shalom

 

Will Gaddafi's Ghost be Driven From Libya?

The Ghost of Gaddafi is still roaming the Libyan sands and the fake Alternative Media websites, but not for long.

For some reason the Gaddafi hypesters seem to want to go down with the departed ship of state and its bevy of war, and we here are Veterans Today are only too glad to throw a goodbye party for them.

Because we have so many old Intel people here, spotting shills, or at least the smell of them, is a finely hone occupational talent.

After “following the money,” we found the email chains touting Gaddafi’s “welfare state” come from the same fantasy-mills now attacking “OCW” as “hippies and terrorists.”

For those who don’t already know, Uri Avnery is about as true blue a peacenik as you can find on the planet.

In his 80s, he remains in Israel as the strongest critic of Likudist policies against Palestinian rights, a notoriety that has put his life on the line more than once.  Uri’s career dates back to the 40’s with the terrorist organization, the Irgun, eventually to a seat in the Knesset and then to open warfare against Israeli injustice.

Uri Avnery with the IDF in the Sinai - 1948 War

Uri’s piece below on the death of Gaddafi is another one of his gems. I admit I am biased. I love wisdom, and over the years have learned that the old folks seem to have a much bigger dose of it than the rest of us.

Uri is one of us, a combat vet, not the only one of us to regret aspects of our service, as VT represents veterans from 28 countries.

Only a combat veteran knows war, death and injustice, really knows it.  The reality of the senselessness of war learned first hand is an education many have shunned.

We were just aghast when we witnessed the so-called anti-imperialist Left jumping on the Gaddafi bandwagon wholesale. It was all too quick, the same talking points, too organized, and too many of them conveniently blind to what was obvious for anyone wanting to see.

Uri's First Book - Been There - Done That

It did not take long to discover the river of cash that Gaddafi’s PR people had to buy media coverage. For cash poor Lefties, Gaddafi was the summer Santa Claus.

But Veterans Today was right again. Uri Avnery has the proof.  He independently supports all of our main Libyan Revolution editorial themes and reporting.

And we can pass a lie detector test that we have never even talked on the phone with Uri nor taken six figure bribes from him to run his work here.

Unlike the Alt Media shills, Veterans Today had people on the ground there, not only with the Rebels but behind the lines in Tripoli and Misrata, but in Sirte while that last and wasteful battle was ongoing.  One of our writers was there when Gaddafi was captured.

While we drive the stake through the heart of the Gaddafi regime beast with Uri’s help today, the Libyan people will be putting the nails in the coffin.

We shall work hard to make sure the Alt media phonies are buried along with the fake Gaddafi myths.

The New Libyan people own the story now, they paid for it with the blood of the martyrs. And eventually the Alt Media shills will be hearing from them, of that I am sure.   Jim W. Dean

 

A View from the Villa   …Uri Avnery     October 29, 2011

 

Gaddafi on Display in Misrata - Where He Killed so Many

The killing of Muammar Gaddafi and his son Muatasim was not a pretty sight. After seeing it once, I looked away when it was shown again and again on TV – literally ad nauseam.

Commercial TV exists, of course, to make money for the tycoons by appealing to the basest instincts and tastes of the masses. There seems to be an insatiable appetite for gruesome sights.

But in Israel there was another motive for showing these lynch scenes repeatedly, as the commentators made abundantly clear.

These scenes proved, to their mind, the primitive, barbaric, murderous nature of the Arab peoples, and, indeed, of Islam as such.

Ehud Barak likes to describe Israel as a “villa in the middle of a jungle”. By now this is accepted by the great majority of our media people.

They never miss an opportunity to point out that we live in a “dangerous neighborhood” – making it clear that Israel does not really belong to this neighborhood. We are a civilized Western people, sadly surrounded by these primitive savages.

As I have mentioned many times, this goes right back to the founder of Zionism, Theodor Herzl, who wrote that the future Zionist state would be a part of “the wall of civilization against Asiatic barbarism”.

Since this attitude has far-reaching mental and political implications, let’s have a closer look.

Uri - First Assassination Attempt

I am against the death penalty, in all its forms. Executions, whether in Texas or in China, disgust me. I would have much preferred Gaddafi to be tried in a proper court.

But my first reaction to the sight was: My God, how much a people must hate its ruler if they treat him like that!

Obviously, the decades of abominable terror inflicted on the Libyan people by this half-crazy despot have destroyed any remnants of mercy they may have felt. His fanatical defenders to the last, members of his tribe, seem to be a tiny minority.

Uri - Second Assassination Attempt

His clownish appearance and foreign adventures diverted the attention of world opinion from the murderous aspects of his rule.

From time to time, on a whim, he let loose waves of horror, torturing and killing anyone who had so much as voiced a hint of criticism, trying them in football stadiums, where the roar of the maddened crowds drowned out the pitiful pleading for mercy of the condemned.

On one occasion, his thugs shot all the 1200 inmates of Abu Salim prison in Tripoli.

True, he spent some money on building schools and hospitals, but that was a tiny part of the huge amounts of oil revenue squandered on his bizarre adventures or stolen by his family.

This immensely rich country has a poor population, a single narrow road from Egypt through to Tunisia and a standard of living that is a third of ours.

You did not have to be an Arab barbarian or Muslim arch-terrorist to do what was done to him. Actually, the highly civilized Italians (Libya’s former colonial masters) did exactly the same in 1945.

Italian Communists Also Did Not Want a Trial for Mussolini

When the partisans caught the fleeing Benito Mussolini, he pleaded piteously for his life, but they killed him on the spot together with his mistress.

Their bodies were thrown into the street, kicked and spat upon by the crowd, and then hanged by their feet from meat hooks from the roof of a gas station, where the public threw stones at them for days on end.

I don’t remember anybody in civilized Europe protesting.

Contrary to Mussolini and Gaddafi, Adolf Hitler was not caught while ignominiously trying to escape. He chose a much more dignified exit.

But during his last weeks Gaddafi rather resembled Hitler, living in a world of crazy delusion, moving nonexistent troops around on the map, sure to the end of the boundless love of his people.

Nicolae Ceausescu, another bloody tyrant, had his day – or hour – in court. It was a charade, as such trials are bound to be. The kangaroo court condemned him to death and he was shot forthwith, together with his wife.

Gaddafi’s demise puts an end to the debate that started months ago.

 

Ceausescus Meet Their End by Machine Gun Firing Squad - Elena Insisted on Being Shot With Her Husband " We Have Lived Together - We Will Die Together "

There can be no doubt any more that the vast majority of the Libyan people detested Gaddafi and welcomed the NATO campaign that helped to remove him. It was an important contribution, but the actual heavy fighting was done by the ragtag people’s army.

Libya liberated itself. Even in Tripoli, it was the people who put an end to the tyranny.

I was sharply attacked by some well-meaning European leftists for blessing the awful monster called NATO. Now, in retrospect, it is quite obvious that the overwhelming – if not unanimous – opinion of the Libyans themselves welcomed the intervention. [Editor’s Note: Veterans Today was also…by the same crowd.  Jim Dean]

Uri - Whiffing Tear Gas and Ducking Rubber Bullets at 85 !!

Where did I differ from these leftists? I think that they have sewn themselves into a kind of ideological straightjacket.

During the Vietnam war they arrived at a world view that was appropriate for that particular situation: there were good guys and bad guys.

The good guys were the Vietnamese Communists and their allies. The bad guys were the US and its puppets. Since then, they have applied this schema to every situation around the world: South Africa, Yugoslavia, Palestine.

But every situation is different. Vietnam is not Libya, the South African problem was much more simple than ours.

Great power politics may remain constant, and very unattractive at that, but there are huge differences between the various situations.

I was very much against the US wars in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq, and very much in favor of the NATO campaigns in Kosovo and Libya.

For me, the starting point of every analysis is what the people concerned want and need, and only after that do I wonder how the international schema applies to them. Working from the inside out, so to speak, not from the outside in.

Also, I have never quite understood the dogma which seems to answer all questions: “it’s all about oil”. Gaddafi sold his oil on the world market, and so will his successors, on the same terms. International oil corporations are all the same to me. Is there much of a difference between the Russian Gazprom and the American Esso?

Putin - Dictatorship of Himself ?

Some former Communists seem to have a kind of inherited attachment to Russia, almost automatically supporting its international positions, from Afghanistan to Serbia to Syria.

Why? What is the similarity between Vladimir Putin and the Soviets? Putin does not subscribe to the dictatorship of the proletariat, he is quite satisfied with a dictatorship of himself.

If Gaddafi’s savage end has reinforced all the Islamophobic obsessions in the West, the elections in Tunisia have made matters worse.

Help! The Islamists have won the elections! The Muslim Brotherhood will win the elections in Egypt! The Arab Spring will turn the whole region into one vast hotbed of Jihad! Israel and The West are in mortal danger!

This is all nonsense. And dangerous nonsense at that, because it may derail any sensible American and European policy towards the Arab world.

Sure, Islam is on the rise. Islamic parties have resisted the Arab dictatorships and were persecuted by them, and therefore are popular in the aftermath of their downfall – much as European Communists were very popular in France and Italy after the defeat of Fascism. From there on, support for these parties declined.

Islam is an important part of Arab civilization. Many Arabs are sincere believers. Islamic parties will certainly play an important role in any democratic Arab order, much as Jewish religious parties play – alas – an important role in Israeli politics. Most of these Arab parties are moderate, like the governing Islamic party in Turkey.

Uri at Work With Begin and Sadat

It is certainly desirable that these parties become a part of the democratic order, rather than turning into its enemy. They must be inside the tent, otherwise the tent may collapse.

I believe that this is in the best interest of Israel, too. That’s why my friends and I favor Fatah-Hamas reconciliation and advocate direct negotiations between Israel and Hamas, and not only for prisoner exchanges.

Our media are outraged: the interim Prime Minister of Libya has announced that Islamic law – the sharia – will guide the enactment of new laws in his country.

It seems our journalists are ignorant of the existence of an Israeli law that says that if there are legal questions for which there are no ready answers, the religious Jewish law – the Halakha – will fill the void.

Moreover, there is a new bill before the Knesset that states unequivocally that the Halakha will decide legal disputes.

The outcome of the Tunisian elections was, to my mind, very positive. As expected, the moderate Islamic party won a plurality, but not a majority. It must form a coalition with secular parties and is willing to do so. These parties, totally new and practically unknown, need time to establish their identity and structure.

A White Haired Uri Avnery with a Younger Arafat

To add a personal note, Rachel and I went to Tunisia many times to meet Yasser Arafat, and rather liked the people.

We were especially taken by the many men we saw in the streets wearing a jasmine flower behind the ear. No wonder that such people could make an almost bloodless “jasmine revolution”.

If elections in other Arab countries follow this pattern, as seems probable, it will be all for the best.

The Obama administration was clever enough to jump on the bandwagon of the Arab revolutions, though at the very last moment.

We Israelis did not have this sense. Our Islamophobia has caused us to miss a golden opportunity for a new image among the young Arab revolutionaries.

Instead, we contrast our goodness with the barbarism of the Libyans, who have once again shown the true nature of the jungle surrounding our villa.

They Say Behind a Good Man is a Good Woman

In Memorium:  Rachel Avnery – 1932-2011

The staff and writers of Veterans Today would like to send out condolences to Uri on the death of his long time love and partner who stuck by him through thick and thin. May we all be so fortunate to experience a bond like this in our lives.

From Wikipedia…

In 2001, Avnery and his wife Rachel Avnery were honoured with the Right Livelihood Award, sometimes called the “Alternative Nobel Prize”, “… for their unwavering conviction, in the midst of violence, that peace can only be achieved through justice and reconciliation”.[16]

In 2006, settler activist Baruch Marzel called on the Israeli military to carry out “a targeted killing” against Avnery.[17]

 After she died, I sat for an hour with my eyes fixed on her face. She was beautiful. A GERMAN friend sent me a saying which I find strangely comforting. It translates as:

“Don’t be sad that she left you, Be glad that she was with you for so many years.”


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Posted by on October 28, 2011, With Reads Filed under WarZone. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. Both comments and pings are currently closed.

81 Responses to "Gaddafi Phony Welfare State Unmasked"

  1. Jim W. Dean  November 1, 2011 at 11:42 am

    Dear Folks, John R. is being banned for using a phony email address, a terms of service violation.

    UPDATE: John R was using a bogus email address Horwhere6656@aol.com His name is eugene mabrodosky, and owner of an Israel web proxy service. This means he can issue phony aol email address to post phony comments. The Israelis do a lot of this. We must be doing something right.

    It will take 24 hours to erase him from the system. I am posting this in the reply to let you know that most of the crap we get, 90% of it is from this anonymous crowd…most of that organized opposition. I had typed up a personal email to him, which was just a waste of my time…but the work has to be done to smoke out this ‘upset’ phonies.

    The comment boards are going to be for a group of online friends who know each other or at least want to be. And as we all know, friends disagree and argue about all kinds of things. But we are going to moderate the comment boards, starting by choosing who gets on and who does not. John R. will not be among us.

  2. John R.  November 1, 2011 at 7:18 am

    Of course it does. Many have been erased. Notice Dean has to chime in after every comment to chaatise anyone disagreeing with his point of view. Legitimate journalists don’t attack readers, regardless of whether they agree.

  3. Jim W. Dean  November 1, 2011 at 6:39 am

    Well Dirt, I, of all people, will be the last to claim to have seen everything that has been reported, but you are wayyyy behind the curve here with the zero number. There are reams of people who have been released from prison, and you have the UN indictments as a nice formal place to start.

    Your zero position basically says that the Arab league, the Gulf States, even the African ones on board…they all supported the murder conspiracy against the poor Gaddafi family…which is quite a stretch.

    But stretching is something we see a lot of in this. We uncovered that this silly check list of the wonderful things Gaddafi did for Libya, a UN ‘fact’ sheet…was forged. Yet there were an army of folks who peddaled it around, without doing the slightest check on it.

    We have a UN diplomat here. His name is Gordon. A document like that could never have come out of the UN as it is against the rules, basically a political support position, the kind of thing you see enclosed in a fundraising letter for a political campaign.

    And mind you, we saw Phd’s and experieced journalist peddaling this. They all had one very obvious and easy to understand common thread. They were all biased. They WANTED it to be true because it supported where they wanted to go.

    The same folks send us a still frame out of the capture footage showing a guy in military garb that looked like a professional soldier. He of course, despite the blurriness of the photo, became PROOF that NATO troops were on the ground directing the rebels, which is ludicrous. The mass media camera people would have spotted them if that were true. NATO does not have invisible soldiers.

    It turns out that the guy was an ETM medical person with the ambulance, where those folks have been suited up with kevlar vests and the works for their dangerous work.

    But you won’t have to wait long Dirt as once the Libyan get through this establishing of the interim government they will have time to set up a Gaddafi archival branch, and you will have enough material to keep you busy for some time.

    The fashion plate female bodyguards have already come forward that they were just gang rape dolls, passed around from Gaddafi to his sons, and then the regime bigwigs. For motivation the Gaddafi people would claim that a brother was caught with drugs coming back from Malta, and could spend his life in prison…those cute little incentives…or…they could serve the master.

    The same thing happened with many of the female civilian defense force young girls. You do the deed or your family will suffer dearly. That was the Gaddafi regime…it’s legacy.

  4. Steve  November 1, 2011 at 5:35 am

    Katyn was a shocker, but not to be forgotten are the 111000 Poles (yes 3 ones and 3 zeros) bumped off in 37-38 during the purge in a targeted op, there were others for Germans and other nationalities too.

  5. Jim W. Dean  October 31, 2011 at 7:23 pm

    Not to worry Jackson. We have robust discussions on posts that don’t draw the disrupters. Ingrid Rimlands commentors mention this more than on any other writers posts, how much more enjoyable contributing is when not having to wade through all the comments from folks who have ‘issues’…and claim a constitutional right to post…pretending that they don’t know that all comment boards are moderated.

    What we will be doing is getting rid of some posters and replacing them with others to the enjoyment of all. Everyone will still be able to read the comments. But to participate there will be an application process. People who know who each other is, tend to be more polite and make a better effort at manners.

    We have concluded that the anonymity leads to people being much more considerate. I was astounded how many people we cut that emailed about taking their free speech rights away…like I would believe that. It just showed that there are a lot of people out their whose feet rarely touch that planet.

    We feel people’s reading time is limited…we appreciate it, and we are going to try to give them the biggest bang for their buck. We also want to attract a more high quality commentors, people who actually know stuff…and cutting the bottom 20% is a small price to pay.

    All the old timers who have been here for ages will be carried over as Gordon knows who is who after years on these comment boards and countless hours.

    And we also hope folks understand the grueling work load that running VT is getting this material out and the increasingly higher level that we are. We just ask everybody to understand that we have only one superman here, which is Gordon. The rest of us are mere mortals and cannot do the worth of five or six people in a day 🙂

    We also have to pull some time from somewhere to produce the radio and TV we want to do. It’s very time intensive. Please go to the editorial board and take a look at the staff and you the daily folks are. What you see is what you get.

    Now y’all read my Halloween piece or my feelings will be hurt. I an only have it up on the feature section for a day and then it has to make way for something else 🙂

  6. Jackson  October 31, 2011 at 6:52 pm

    im certainly no shill for zionism, or any other ‘ism.. , but trust is a two way street. initially i was drawn here by gordons articles on 9/11, and would reference them on blogs elsewhere. however, some things hed say would trouble me, and to criticise, would result in me having comments arbitrarily deleted, without explanation, which makes me less comfortable referencing this site in future, not that i expect that to register at all on your “care less” meters. but, there could be a number of folk who feel the same, who knows.

    the password system you envisage will solve all your disinfo campaign issues, i feel will more likely result in a site that indulges in less robust, “circle jerking” kinda conversations, like the infamous jref site, where only “friends” will be able to offer an opinion, and will discourage many that might have a useful insight, who wouldnt mind sharing it, but might baulk at the idea of going through the motions of setting up an account simply to share their two cents worth, though it could be worth 5 cents even, and though you feel the effort needed to contain the shills currently, this is a cost youre willing to bear, it still, from my understanding of the interwebs, wont be able to stop the more dedicated shills. so i imagine there will be a lot of “password accounts” that youll simply have to delete instead of comments, because for whatever reason, or no reason, as in my case, you simply dont like what is being said, or you determine them to be shills, only to have them sign up again under a different name, and ip address. in short, youll still have the same issues, perhaps not the same magnitude, but i doubt as many people will be here to read whats being said either. thats my understanding of how the internet works, i might be wrong, as they say, time will tell.

    i appreciate this site, visit often, and appreciate the privilege of having my point of view expressed, when it is..but, as it is at the moment, youre inviting comments from anyone, simply by having the comment box there. to then delete or not publish comments – without any explanation, even though as you say, is entirely your right, on the basis you consider them to be shills, or simply you dont like what they say, simply stinks.

  7. dirt  October 31, 2011 at 5:23 pm

    Again, I also would need proof of all of these crimes by Ghadafi, I’ve heard so much by people who are supposed to know 1st hand, yet have heard or seen not one piece of proof. I’ve gone extensively to many sites that offer more explanations myself. I’m at zero proof of any of the Lybian attrocities so far. I have seen no verified facts about all the banking fiasco’s ghadafi was accused of. With the Rothschilds involved I’m hard to convince, especially when Jr was so cozy with that family.

  8. Jim W. Dean  October 31, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    Wrong, We have organized disinfo campaigns run all the time. The Zios from Israel sometime, the ADL folks, the Pal communist brigade, etc. The list is long. We are not about to work for them for free. Comment boards are moderated everywhere other than blogs with ten hits a day.

    But the fix will be a new system that is on the way. The comment boards will be password access only, no more anonymous folks, no spammers, only people we know. There will still be lots of arguments…there always have been, but we won’t be entertaining the opposition.

    Comment boards are going to be a discussion amongst old friends and new.

  9. greg  October 31, 2011 at 12:28 pm

    I see. All that Occupy America protesters have to do is declare themselves the new, official government of the U.S. and NATO will obligingly bomb Washington, Wall, Street and every city in America.
    I had a lot of Respect for VT before this stand on Gaddafi who headed the richest country in Africa that was basically tranquil for years. Sure, it’s perfectly acceptable to bomb civilians for humanitarian reasons now. To destroy a country’s infrastructure because you don’t like a the leader.
    I’m afraid you folks have a screw loose on this issue.

  10. Gordon Duff  October 31, 2011 at 8:52 am

    John
    The next war is here.
    We are in it.
    The enemy is us.

  11. John Dobbs  October 31, 2011 at 7:08 am

    Just for the record, I’m against the next war.

  12. Mr Af-Pakistan  October 31, 2011 at 6:37 am

    When are we going to unveil the phony 3rd World War in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan? if its a number game we need to know how many collateral deaths will it take to reach the 1500 Psychos up in the new Bermuda Triangle and your Tax Payers would also want to know how many more Trillions does it take to actually zap em.

    I just returned from Kabul and am still spiting light brown spit from the permanently suspended smog, this in the Capital of a country where billions are being spent on rehab? I sat with nearly all of Ahmed Shah Masud front line good Commanders who were joking that the whole of the US development budget for Afghanistan has been funneled by 24 people and majority of whom were responsible for each and every mess since 1980.

    They were right we counted them and they are 24 black holes that vacuumed all your Taxes Payers Money.

  13. Genie  October 30, 2011 at 10:55 pm

    Why can’t the corporate milita that liberated Libya do the same for us, then? In fact, why did’nt they liberate us first? Of course the answers are in the questions. Man, you are so full of it.

  14. RJ  October 30, 2011 at 8:17 pm

    VT should leave all comments as long as they’re not obscene. The truth should not be worried about criticism.

  15. Jim W. Dean  October 30, 2011 at 5:51 pm

    Dear Stop, Grow up. Read the terms of service. It’s a moderated comment board…like all of them are. So cut the whining about censorship. You have a bit of confusion here. It’s not your website. I have not seen you around doing any of the work. I am sure I would have noticed you. You are a guest in our house here. the one that we built.

    OK…dear folks…attention all please. This is a moderated comment board, like all the others. Re-read your constitution. There is nothing about posting in Veterans Today in there.

    You can easily set up your own website sir, or a blog, and knock yourself out saying whatever you want.

  16. Jim W. Dean  October 30, 2011 at 5:41 pm

    Noor, I have been responding to arrogant and condescending people, much of that due to the anonymous posting setup that comment boards generally have.

    All you are telling us is that those connected to the Gaddafi gravy train were happy…and their extended families. That is not news. All the despotic regimes have camp followers, and the Libyans, with no domestic export production other than the oil…many have been on the oil dole.

    But did Gaddafi and his regime create the oil in the ground? Listening to you he did. In fact that is the standard spin of the Gaddafi PR…that he is responsible to for the oil wealth and out of his generosity gives it away to ‘his people’.

    Well I have some good news. The New Libyans are going to be able to now give the same oil revenue away to the Libyan people. The old Gaddafi people, what they are really whining about, is they are not going to have their privileged status anymore. In fact, they might be second class citizens for a while while those on the short end of the stick play catch up.

    But we shall see if the new folks steal less than Gaddafi. They are also planning to create some real work for people by building a service oriented economy there so college graduates do not become an export commodity to send overseas to make money to send home.

  17. stophypocrisy  October 30, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    This site censors posts! Of course I was expecting it because this is what propaganda sites do, just like in communist China.
    There are two types of people that hate truth.

  18. noor al haqiqa  October 30, 2011 at 3:56 pm

    No matter what spin anyone puts on it, what has been done to Libya, its people and its leader, is plain wrong on a humanitarian basis, let alone anything else. This assault and assassination have been in the works for decades now and no amount of fudging can change that.

    I don’t care who tries to change that, honoured peace activist or retired fighting man, it is just plain wrong. The people of Libya were a great deal better off than they were before Qaddafi and only a fool could state otherwise. I have known quite a few Libyans over the years and they loved their homeland and the lives they had there and happily returned when their time was up here in Canada. None ever complained about the horrors of home.

    The things Qaddafi had and was doing for Libya are bombed to bits, their lives will never be the same. I warrant that today, these same people would be far less inclined to return home.

    You can parlay and play with words all you want, but the bottom line is the people and are they truly happy. They aren’t and I doubt they will be for a long time if ever. Deformed children, lost parents and siblings, ruined cities, loss of privileges known by few Africans and/or Westerners….

    Play with your words and ideas. They don’t mean zip to the facts on the ground that the people now face. And that NATO, a criminal organization, the strong arm of Zionism (American and Israeli) is just that… a criminal organization. Supporting its actions is just plain treason to the people it slaughters and the nations it wrecks.

    And Mr. Dean, you can respond all you want but I have found your attitude to respondents to be both arrogant and condescending, so I doubt I will return to read it. As it is I now realize removing myself from the VT mailing list awhile back was justified once again.

  19. Gordon Duff  October 30, 2011 at 3:42 pm

    We disagree on Uri…but no question…you can write.
    g

  20. peter  October 30, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    Jim – it is a fact that european economies run off oil – fuel – the filling station et al….the Brit economy runs on oil consumption – the europeans were not going to let the Yanks get Libyan oil and oil is the current medium because the big automobile market demands it and so the real money profits are made…the story goes on – find some good journos to write you real time stories and publish them without editing them – they will be very readable without any interference.

  21. peter  October 30, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    there will be Burger King Whopper vouchers for all….

    is that the best you can do? poison people with junk food to celebrate your imperialist share at the expense of lets say 30,000 muredered people, etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,yawn…

    Really Jim – is that your humour or your dis-ease?

  22. Jim W. Dean  October 30, 2011 at 2:30 pm

    Rick, ‘CIA’ directed rebels? You obviously have never been in the field. You could just watch the TV footage and see that wasn’t true. You don’t have a clue.

    Blood for Oil. Let me get this straight. Europe was getting 95% of the product. Europe is expected to be getting 95% after things get cranked up. How do I know? Easy, the NTC said month ago that they would honor all prewar distribution contract. So that claim in bogus.

    And Gordon’s piece covered the oil glut that is being covered up by the producers to keep the prices up as long as they can during the recession as the desperately need the money.

    As for Iraq….you can go ask Wolfowitz and crowd who said the oil would cover the costs of the invasion.

    But you mentioning it here is disinfo, as it has nothing to do with Libya. Internet people just connect what ever they feel like. It’s an empowerment thing. Somebody needs to write a book about it.

    Freedom fighters. Sure. Are the Gaddafi thugs doing home raids anymore? Are they holding anyone in the prisons? Are they going to be getting their hands on the frozen funds, or any of the future oil revenues. Is Gaddafi and Sons going to be able to bang/rape any of his female bodyguards anymore?

    You bet your butt they are freedom fighters. The media has been roaming around for weeks not recording how thrilled folks are. The only long faces belong to the former oppressive regime crowd, who know there is a paper trail on them.

    And dear genius Rick, This is not a blog…never has been. It’s a military and foreign affairs journal, with veterans and 28 countries. We are read by the major media, and Intel agencies in dozens of countries, many of whom we know personally for decades.

    So again…you are clueless beyond belief. I’m sure when they all hear that you are disappointed that they will stop reading, too, right….because you, Rick, have spoken. One last question. Please name two countries that border the United States? This is going to be one of the test questions to get on the new comment boards. We are really going to raise the bar !!!

  23. Curmudgeon  October 30, 2011 at 8:48 am

    My posting name is Curmudgeon. I chose it because I resent propaganda.
    http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/curmudgeon;jsessionid=199DBB4DEE19FB9D81E2553A7B57782C

    I find your not-so-clever attempt at shortening it to be insulting.
    http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/cur;jsessionid=A3C878703D3339FF10F4976FAFB5AD5D

  24. Frances Owens  October 29, 2011 at 11:05 pm

    I am just an American, in a percentile far removed from the 1%. I have been trying to figure out what is going on for several years. There is no task so frustrating as seeking truth in a world filled with so many lies. I want the truth for one reason – for I am an elder in my extended family and there is a 1 yr old and 5 yr old I would rather survive than die and the search for truth is a selfish one – that I might know what steps to take to protect my loved ones.

    Those who seem to be commenting that the Nato bombing was wrong, that the Libyan people would not have wanted their country bombed, their fellow citizens destroyed, I have an opinion on that too.

    Although I have no intelligence contacts, no bridges to any other land, I do have a reality that I can see. I see who prospers. I see our politics awash in money, our politicians are corrupt, divert and divide, and our media lies. I firmly believe we need different politicians, a different press, some controls over the greed that I know exists because the few are managing to make immense profit during a recession while most of us fall.

    Although I am a person of too much emotion and can have tears appear watching those humane society ads with the abused animals and am unusually upset at the thought of injustice – at this point if it were offered, I would be tempted to say yes, help us, drop a few bombs on Washington, even knowing many innocents would die.

    Possibly I would make that decision, thinking that at least there could be a chance something better would arise from the ashes. Fortunately for me, I will never be in a situation where I might accede to the bombing in my own country. So I think it is entirely possible Libyans might have been glad of Nato, and willing to sacrifice some of their countrymen in the hopes of saving the rest.

    The major problem I am having at this point is, if these people pulling all the strings have so much power and money, and control so many assets and are capable of controlling all these “fantasy factories” and Jim and Gordon are speaking out against them, why aren’t they dead? It seems a simpler answer is that governments and countries will maneuver politically, war and even assassinate to gain more power and could be doing this without a desire to rule the world.

    But their obviously is a lot of fraudulent activity going on in the banking sector – how come no one is even trying to just remove this threat? I would think a determined small group just taking care of a few of the known bad players who have profited inordinately would at least make the others think twice about what they are doing. Why has not one been taken out? We have no heroes or cold-blooded killers on our side?

    So why aren’t you dead Gordon, taken out by the bad guys? Could they be so confident that our inability to find a solid truth will keep us from acting against them? They feel so powerful they have no need to fear you telling us the truth? They just confuse us to death until they are ready to strike?

    This is no life for anyone, I should be busy sewing quilts and gardening, not being driven crazy searching for truth. I probably don’t even qualify as one of the “grown ups” you are going to allow on this site. But here or somewhere I will continue to search for truth.

  25. Genie  October 29, 2011 at 9:53 pm

    Give me a break, Joe. France was after commercial reward. And then some. What did “right” have to do with it. The colonists and other foreigners were not even fighting for their own land, duh.
    In the case of Libya, they are native in their own country not occupied by a foreign power. Oh…I mean till now. Whatever contracts they made to be free of Gaddafi (deal with the devil) they will certainly not be free by any means.

  26. Jim W. Dean  October 29, 2011 at 9:50 pm

    Joe, Thanks for the historical framing. I was wondering where the Americans were. We Poles are carrying the day here. Our own formation was a bumpy road, with a war that would have run into millions of today’s population.

    And there was the analogy of the great powers struggle of the time between France and England was a major factor…as was our bringing in some mercenaries. The Northern States even allowed runaway white slaves to enlist so they could get ‘papers’.

    I did my first TV show on the history of white slavery in America. It got more audience calls than anything they had ever done, which kicked off my doing Heritage TV in Atlanta.

    I have people in the Katyn Forest, long forgotten but for the fabulous movie made a few years ago. I did a piece using a great trailer clip I found.

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/04/11/the-katyn-forest-massacre-a-revisionist-history-rosetta-stone/

    Picked up a batch of Polish readers from it. Even had the Atlanta Polish Council as a guest for Memorial Day this year. She had gone to Siberia as a baby during WWII, and come back at 5. Her mother, she and her daughter, all doctors…all tough. There are really a lot of great people out there if you dig around.

  27. Jim W. Dean  October 29, 2011 at 9:08 pm

    Genie, You’re negative projecting. We were praying for capture and trial for all the wonderful tales he could tell.

    Mussolini was a communist killing…kind of an automatic thing with them. They really loved executions.

    Oh BTW…nice map work on the blog. And I loved the old photos in the Libyan piece, especially the Herzl Youth.

  28. Joe in San Francisco  October 29, 2011 at 5:28 pm

    So many of the comments to this article seem to take umbrage at the United States and its allies serving in support of the people of Libya. But if the Libyan freedom fighters asked for our help to remove a dictator who could not be removed by any other means, it’s really not much different from the American colonies asking for and accepting outside help from France to win a revolution against a hated monachy that no peaceful negotiations could ever remove.

    There was even my fellow countryman, a hero still in Poland, Tadeusz Kościuszko, who served as Colonel in the Continental Army. Oh, how my Polish-speaking nuns at Holy Innocents school in Chicago used to sing his praises during history class!

    In any case, we won our independence through our own blood and the blood of outside others who believed we were right in doing so. And it resulted in the Constitution that everyone here says they believe in and is still the envy of the world after more than 200 years.

    The same is happening with all the idealists who are showing up at Occupy Wall Street protests throughout the country and in sympathy throughout the world, even in Egypt: God or Allah bless them!

  29. Jim W. Dean  October 29, 2011 at 3:14 pm

    Dear Folks, Carey has been banned from VT for terms of service violation, ie., supplying us a bogus email address. It will take 24 hour to clear him out of the system. We don’t deal with folks that don’t exist. It makes us feel….silly.

    We are overhauling the comment structure and converting over to an all adult version.

  30. Jim W. Dean  October 29, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    ‘Support NATO strikes’. What are you talking about. Active opposition has ended and the new government is moving forward. Did we support the past NATO strikes? You know we did. So what’s the pretend comments asking the rhetorical question.

    “Support our government?’ ….we are not anti-government in your broad brush framing because it is childish. That kind of talk is used almost exclusively by anger and frustrated people who don’t know what to do. Yet, they hide from being realistic by ducking all of the nuances involved.

    You are mad as us. You are just mad that it is harder to fix than you want it to be. Excuse me for taking a pass on your substitute whipping boy.

    So what are you going to rant against tomorrow Tony…the whole world? And your ranting is going to do what exactly?….move the ball down the field toward victory a bit? It’s not that easy. So in protest you are going to what?..stop reading stuff everywhere? And that is an example to the young people for how to act?

    And oh, don’t let the door hit you in the butt on the way out! We are not in the Alice in Wonderland business and make no apologies. We eat reality all day long.

  31. Jim W. Dean  October 29, 2011 at 3:00 pm

    Rick, You are stretching with the putting words in our mouths we did not say. This is an old debate trick.

    I don’t know where you folks come from that think social change in any of these countries will come with Mother Theresa leasing the way. It’s rarely a pretty process.

    As for Egypt…ahh.. it’s early in the process. For an American I am shocked. Our own history was filled with growing pains. I few miles for my boyhood home in Western Massachusetts is and stone marker for the last battle of Shays Rebellion after independence.

    As for missing money. Take a ticket and get in line. A lot of folks are going to be missing money that was not there to begin with, but pretenda-dough.

    The New Libyans have a tough road to hoe, like everybody elses was tough. And the tooth fairy will not come to help out. But they are way better off than most in Africa as they have their oil resources.

    And yes…we have problems right back here. Amen. And look how ‘advanced’ we are and the mess we have. So you are going to hold the Libyans to an Abra Cadabra few magic words and they all live happily ever after? I don’t remember anyone predicting that.

  32. Tony  October 29, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    About this article: Like 14; Tweet 4; Share 3. What a shame! This is it for me, no more bullshit VT readings anymore. If you support NATO strikes in Libya, that means that you indirectly support your own government (while claiming that you are going to bring a revolution in US), Israeli and Western Zionist agenda. You are one of them. Stop thinking that everyone is a fool here.

  33. Genie  October 29, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    ” We got it right” ? NATO killed 30,000 Libyans and injured thousans more. That was the last count I heard on RT news. NATO destroyed the infrustructure of the country which they (the Western military) are famous for. The West wanted Gaddafi to turn Libya into an inferno and when he did not, they did it themselves. It’s so freekin bizarre how you twist it all to blame Gaddafi for what NATO accomplished! The Orwellian tactic here is awesome.

  34. Genie  October 29, 2011 at 1:43 pm

    A trial conducted at the international court of justice would have settled the matter one way or another, like it or not for all sides. We would have at least shut up about it just like everyone pretty much let it go with OJ Simpson after his trial no matter how hokey. What’s legal is legal. For some reason your side didn’t want a trial and made damn sure it didn’t happen. Hmm. Ok the same happened with Mussolini but this isn’t 1945 and there was no internet for alternative information. Now we are left to be convinced by the lynch mob of the true facts of the matter… and the western corrupt governments and the evil CIA/Mossad. Uri Avnery, the peacenik Zionist who still sells the Jewish holocaust snakeoil isn’t going to settle the matter just by talking. It’s too late. It will forever be open ended and you will forever be merely singing to the choir.

  35. Jim W. Dean  October 29, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    Welcome to the real world. The host country invites. They have a public terrorism problem, not one that happens in their nightmares, and the authorizations for moves like this were approved a long time ago.

    What you are doing is saying you don’t like it, which is fine. But you are in denial if you think that at this stage of the game US forces cannot be deployed against terrorism, by and inviting country.

    Now is some of this being staged, some of these groups on somebody’s string?…all of that is fair game for discussion as there is plenty of historical precedent. None of this is boy scouts and goldie locks stuff.

  36. tony_opmoc  October 29, 2011 at 12:19 pm

    Don’t you get it?

    “It’s time Britain’s armed forces worked out what is happening in the world. We should be fighting against the CIA, Mossad and the penetration of these organisations into our own country, not assisting them to destroy peoples’ lives in other places around the globe. Britain’s armed forces are needed to defend our own people from the predations of our own security services who carry out false acts of terror against us. These are committed to feed the media’s war narratives on behalf of the corporations that would become the world’s single government. Our finest are fighting to accelerate our own enslavement.”

    Obviously I didn’t write the above. I ain’t that intelligent. Apparently she said it live in a video that lasts over an hour.

    I like smart girls

    Tony

  37. tony_opmoc  October 29, 2011 at 10:57 am

    This is sheer complete and utter total Bollocks..

    I get more sense from reading Con Coughlin In The Daily Telegraph when he is pissed.

    The idea that any normal person in any country likes their country being bombed back to the Stoneage is completely ridiculous.

    Admittedly brainwashed morons of all political pursasions all over America believe this nonsense.

    I don’t particularly like David Cameron, and I dislike Tony Blair with a serious passion.

    Please you lovely Americans

    Please come and bomb the Shit out of us.

    We really like it.

    Tony

  38. Bob  October 29, 2011 at 10:36 am

    yes the oil is going to flow , but the contracts and the people in control have been change out. Oil control is the only thing worth 2 cents. The Banker ask the oil man to float him some money to patch up his books. The oil man says what do you got for collateral. Banker ,will I got these people who owe me. Banks are worthless but a produce like oil is better then dealing drugs. The debt is so great it’s not worth anything just worthless paper. A country is no different then a man, you must produce something somebody is willing to trade for. If you don’t have a trade you might have to steal. The fake wars were used by many people for many reasons but the dollar can only stand with oil control. If the dollar dies all other reasons matter not. It’s all so crazy , a guy best watch he don’t get his balls shot off for oil ,drugs are bankers. I didn’t back the Vietnam war , when the war drums were beating, but did my time welding in the Navy. Many people don’t understand the easy money was done to keep the sheep happy and fat for the fake wars could go on. The propaganda only works on happy people buying 4 dollar coffee, once the people can’t get what they want the protest starts. Sorry about my poor writing skills but a country boy is what I is.

  39. foo  October 29, 2011 at 8:44 am

    In all of the months since Gordon first proposed, on this site, that Gaddafi be deposed, I have yet to see even one person comment that the only legitimate justification for military action is to prevent or to repel an attack against one’s country and/or an ally by treaty.

    No one has yet commented on the mission of AFRICOM. Hint: There are US troops on the ground in Uganda. Hint: The on again-off again US bombing of Somalia. Hint: NATO (a US front organization) took out Gaddafi.

    The continent of Africa is in the crosshairs.

  40. Jim W. Dean  October 29, 2011 at 7:51 am

    Brewer, Did not exist was never the point, obviously. The point is that they were hyped, and the distribution had some very prejudicial factors involved. Huge amounts were stolen and wasted…and not sustaining export economy was developed via these huge funds to employ the Libyans. Meanwhile, a growing number did not want to do low end work, hence the importation of the African workers.

    Your analysis is silly because you (or anyone) could tout the free eduation, schooling and medical care povided by the Soviet systems and the Red Chinese…and there would be no shortage of statistics.

    This is an Intelligence site Brewer. We are used to wading through crap. It’s just another day at the office of turning the fan on and blowing the smoke out of the way. And excuse me for not apologizing that ‘it ain’t exactly clear’. Here is another quote for you:

    ‘Welcome to the real world…It really is for grownups only’….Veterans Today.

    BTW, I am not aware of ever sending you any emails. I am begining to show signs of forgetfulness. Perhaps you could refresh me. But that said, I certainly support your right to be ‘outta here’. Our cryting should be over in and week or two and with the proper medication we will survive somehow.

    Meanwhile we will be doing what we can for the post war forensic audit that the Libyans will be doing. As I will say again. This is not VT’s story. We are not running it. It’s is there’s. And at the end of the day they will be telling us what the deal is/was.

    And from what we can see from the comments boards, if people don’t like it, they will just reject it. This is what I call Neo-Empowerment. You can control the world simply by your thoughts…a really cool thing. I wish someone would teach me. I would even be willing to lay some cash on you for that…generous me 🙂

    Just for a little comparison between the comment boards and the other folks we interact with. Why do you thing the phone ring here all the time from American deputies department heads, and those from a couple of dozen countries around the world, and more radio and tv interview requests that we can do??

    Have we got them all fooled…and you are the geniuses that are ‘onto us’…or it is it the other way around.
    Which of you have actually met Gaddafi and has known the family, or met and worked with Osama bin Laden?…and it Africa for many years?

    What countries are calling you to help them set up a counter terrorism capacity where they need the best possible people? Who here has spent thousand of hours doing interrogations, where much of the time people are trying to scam you to give them money for bogus info? I could go on and on but it this does not turn the light on a little bit, more would not help.

    Some of you folks need to get the Vicks enhalers out and take a stiff whiff and come back to the planet.

  41. Jim W. Dean  October 29, 2011 at 7:22 am

    Bob, Why? They are getting 95% of the oil. The gas pipeline goes right to Italy. No ships have been tapping it. They are going to be getting 95% when the production is running full steam again. Excuse me if I have a little trouble seeing where the ‘oil power shift’ is taking place.

    Are you posing that the EU is going to impose an import duty on Libyan oil products?

    Not a sole commentor here has mentioned the obvious key attraction of the Libyan product, and that is that it is light sweet crude, and close by…the cheapest to refine and low transportation cost. That is why….duhhh…95% of it is going to Europe.

    One good thing that this debate has shown, is we now have a wonderful example to show the young folks how people’s issue baggage they are carrying around poisons their analytical powers…and hence all the money that is pumped into propaganda…because it works. It is not a theory. It does not work with everybody…but lots and lots of them, including the ‘good folks’ who get taken it, too.

    The Christian Zionists are the poster child for that example…40 to 50 million that are like in a hypnotic trance or something. That is a lot of brains being turned off, and it doesn’t happen by accident. Some people worked long and hard to get them in that state.

  42. Jim W. Dean  October 29, 2011 at 7:12 am

    Cur, There are certainly Libyans who have done very well under the Gaddafi regime, walking over the bones of their dead fellow citizens. So their existing proves what? What despotic regime does not have large numbers of people who are just fine with the status quo.

    The number for this crowd we are honing in on is in the 20-25% range. And this is not really hard to figure out. You do not have to have the largest ‘Palace Guard’ in the world for a country where ‘My People Love Me’. You do not have to threaten taking away those support goodies from anyone who does not show up at that required rallies and cheer visibly enough.

    The list goes on and on. I blind man could see it…if he were looking for it. But as I will say again, this is all shadow boxing here, as there will be a post war forensic audit of the Gaddafi regime with a mountain of documentation coming out, with witnesses testimony and the trials they will be having.

    There is no ‘winning a battle’ here on the VT comment boards. We have placed our bet early one…as we did with Assange and Wikileaks. And none of that was based on ‘hunches’ that we had, but hard Intel which we were passing around to the folks that don’t have the sources that we do.

    That is our whole purpose for being here…but which is missed by many who don’t like the news…kind of like we were novelists or something and did not like the plot we were writing.

  43. Curmudgeon  October 29, 2011 at 6:15 am

    Whether he, or you for that matter, is familiar with the history, is irrelevant. Both of you are apologists for an illegal action in which innocents were killed. As I have stated previously, I don’t care if Gaddafi ate babies for breakfast. It doesn’t change the fact that regime change is illegal, as is attempted assassination of political leader, bombing civilian infrastructure, and collective punishment.

  44. Brewer  October 29, 2011 at 12:01 am

    This article has at least cleared up something that has troubled me for some time.
    The existence of the Libyan welfare system has never been in doubt. One may argue whether or not it was a good system but free education, free health, free finance for housing, marriage and child grants, pensions and subsidised food are facts well documented in UNESCO reports, State Department reports, the Human Development Index.

    From this article we learn that these benefits did not exist – “Uri Avnery has the proof”.
    Never mind that dear old Uri does not offer anything but his opinion, we should take it as read because: “Uri Avnery is about as true blue a peacenik as you can find on the planet.”

    Now I may be getting into my dotage but the only conclusion that I can draw from this linking of non sequiturs follows from this premise:

    “we have so many old Intel people here”

    That inescapable conclusion is that the dog’s breakfast that U.S. Foreign Policy has become in the past few decades may well be the result of U.S Intelligence services becoming devoid of analysts familiar with the basic principles of logic.

    Jim.
    No need to send me any more emails hinting at secret knowledge or “bury” me.
    I’m outta here.
    “There’s something happening here What it is ain’t exactly clear” – Buffalo Springfield.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5M_Ttstbgs

  45. Bob  October 28, 2011 at 11:23 pm

    I think the EU wanted more control over Libyan and pulled Obama along. It’s kind of funny a couple days after this conflict , the EU finds some money to bail out the pigs, are maybe new oil contracts will help the bail out. Banks have nothing but debt , the oil is everything. Watch the dollar inflate as the troops come home and we lose oil control. I don’t know much but control the oil and you control the money.

  46. Ken Rechtstein  October 28, 2011 at 10:58 pm

    Don’t make me laugh Gordon, I read History in 8 different languages. My question was a clear and legitimate one. Your comment does not address the issue I raised.

  47. Carey  October 28, 2011 at 10:11 pm

    These US / UN war plans for global domination are as clear as day to me. Unfortunately for THEM, the public has caught on to their LIES and despises the war-mongering. Pastor Lindsay Williams laid all these plans out 2 years ago straight from the mouth of Big Oil. (see his youtubes)

  48. Jim W. Dean  October 28, 2011 at 10:07 pm

    Pen, Let me makes sure I understand this correctly. You are actually saying that Gordon is not familiar with the history of Western backed overthrowers??… After all the time that you have spent on this website?

    And second, do you really think that we are still way back in the ‘making claims’ stage of the game. After the prisons have been emptied, the Intel files were not flame throwered, and now that all the old Gaddafi people, to prove that they have met Jesus, and to get their share of the oil revenue, they will have to be debriefed on their past activities…what do you think the carved in stone result of all of that is going to be?? “All my people loved me? ”

    This is not a very difficult question. What I am sensing here is that you already know, and don’t like what is in the pipeline.

    As for me, I am going to rent a big boat and get on over there to steal some of that oil and make sure I get my imperialist share before it’s all gone 🙂 Those of you that can’t make my party when I get back, there will be Burger King Whopper vouchers for all.

  49. Carey  October 28, 2011 at 9:55 pm

    It’s also about water, and Gaddafi had built a great water system for Libya. ISRAEL NEEDS WATER!
    And it’s about the 144 tons of gold and trillions in bank accounts that Bush, Hillary and Obama wanted to steal. Notice how they rushed into the UN to claim it.

  50. Carey  October 28, 2011 at 9:52 pm

    Agree!

  51. Penumbra  October 28, 2011 at 9:16 pm

    You shame yourself G, noone else, with your ridiculous and childish assertions. If anyone is playing fast and loose with truth vis a vis the underlying agendas at work in the interventions you so love, tis you sir. I strongly suggest you bone up on the consistent history of Western-back overthrows, the balance is doesn’t tilt in favor of your claims.

    Disclaimer:

    No tin foil was torn in the authorship of this comment.

  52. RJ  October 28, 2011 at 9:15 pm

    I think you’re playing games with all of us. The PTB saw the Arab spring and thought it would be a good time to take over Libya under the guise of people uprising. “Never let a good crisis go to waste”

  53. Penumbra  October 28, 2011 at 9:02 pm

    Interventionists are never right, International and US Law is unambiguously clear on that point. You are merely smug and self-satisfied that your latest boogeyman has been destroyed. Nevermind the rule of Law nor the continued downslide of our national integrity due to the utter hypocrisy of our consistent belligerent militarism, you’ve got your “kill the bad guy” spectacles on so you don’t need to bother to consider consistency of principle.

    Until one day, perhaps, when the same is said about our leaders by the next militarized thug on the global block. Don’t worry though, you’ll have conveniently shuffed off this mortal coil by then and won’t have to see our cities and people blown to kingdom come to “liberate them”.

    Praise the lord and pass the ammo…

  54. Gordon Duff  October 28, 2011 at 8:58 pm

    Ken

    There is no debate. You are part of the 1%, along with Cameron, Rothchilds and the tin foil hat brigade, on this issue at least. At least you aren’t trying to publish phony articles about gaddafi as a world hero, just comments.

    g

  55. Penumbra  October 28, 2011 at 8:55 pm

    Ah yes, the ever evasive “Go ask…..” retort. Well JD it isn’t those to whom you refer critics who are making these allegations constantly on VT, it is you. As the accuser the onus falls on you to prove your claims.

    Whilst Averny may be your hero, he is not viewed with such reverence by those who do not excuse his terrorist past, nor his continued self-proclaimed adherence to an abominable ideology. Left Zionism is still Zionism and the enclave it birthed (with Averny’s no so “peacenik” assistance) remains an ongoing exercise in ethnocide, land theft and all other manner of racist criminality.

    Those of us who hold to consistency of principle would clearly argue that if Mr. Averny wants to be taken as a serious advocate of peace he should abandon that enclave and return to the land of native birth as should all his fellows.

    Until then, claims against known and documented facts of the societal development of Libya of the past 40 years remain unchallenged to any court-worthy degree and the likely future under a Western-assisted pro-Idris Benghazis remains highly dubious.

    But continue with your claims if it keeps you warm at night.

  56. Ken Rechtstein  October 28, 2011 at 8:42 pm

    Jim, no doubt that Uri Avnery has amended many times and, with his life at risk, his membership of the terror organization Irgun, in his young days, opposing the deviations of the Israeli Regime. The man is 85 years old now, but still going strong, with own personal ideas and views. Uri’s piece is a welcome contribution to the debate.

    This said, why did the Benghazi NTC ask NATO forces to stay until the end of the year 2011, if as you say in your reply to Brian: (…) “I have seen from unbiased sources is that he (Gaddafi) had about 20% supporting him, and hence the repression structure needed to keep the 80%”?

    Well, that repression structure gone and its leader done with and buried somewhere in the desert, the country should be at least 80% + pacified and. its citizens should be grateful for being freed from the 42 years of dictatorship, or is there something else I have missed?

  57. Curmudgeon  October 28, 2011 at 8:40 pm

    As I posted elsewhere in VT. My wife worked with a Libyan doctor, who was here learning a specialty. He never had bad things to say about Gaddafi or life in Libya. My wife has also worked with many doctors Saudis, Egyptians, and others from Arab countries as well as the Indian sub-continent over the last 30 years. Many have stayed many go back. The Libyan went back.

    It is clear that many VT are apologists for the NATO/military industrial complex war machine. I have stated many times that these apologists do not have a firm grip on political motives. Iraq was about keeping oil IN the ground. Big oil decided 90 years ago what Iraq could produce. Libya, Sudan, Yemen and Pakistan are about choking off Chinese investment in their bid to secure oil. China has invested heavily in 3 of these 4 countries either directly or indirectly in oil. Yemen is needed to choke off Chinese access to oil, through the Suez Canal and the Red Sea.

    Syria, on the other hand, is all about Russian missiles that are likely pointed at Israel, and the ouster of Russia from its Syrian naval base. Hariri was assassinated because he didn’t want an American (Israeli) base in Northern Lebanon.

    Yugoslavia, Romania, Georgia, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, and Syria have nothing to do with democracy or deposing nasty dictators. They are about containment of Russia, and controlling the resources.

  58. Jim W. Dean  October 28, 2011 at 8:26 pm

    RJ….You are playing games with yourself here. NATO, we, and Uri…all the countries recognizing the new government, …are giving credit to the New Libyans, whom no one would have expected to stand up to the Gaddafi machine, planes or no planes.

    And when they cranked the thing up they had no idea what the UN or NATO was going to be able to do.

    Remember the Shia uprising after Gulf War One? They thought with all that military power so close by that the Americans would never let Saddam just crush them.

    The rebles put their noogies on the line and would have been in a world of hurt of the coalition of the ‘semi-willing’ had faltered.

    Last time I looked, Libya is no longer occupied. The Heritage Foundation has not set up a branch office and Jerry Fawell is not preaching conversions at the coliseum. And the American companies moving in are not staffing up with all immigrant workers.

    Uri covered all this above. You either did not read it, or, like so many, because it did not fit your paradigm, ignored it. That is a great deal of that going around.

  59. bspe  October 28, 2011 at 8:25 pm

    RJ – cudos. Watch this video from June 6, 2011: “Goldman Sachs Rips Off Libya, Donald Trump Admits Screwing Gaddafi” http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BvIPUHVI3Cg

    A report looking into how Goldman Sachs dumped debt onto Libya and other countries, and how business tycoon Donald Trump conned Gaddafi over a land deal.

  60. A J MacDonald Jr  October 28, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    BS. Anyone who endorses an offensive NATO is on the wrong side. Google” “ows otpor” and “the revolution business”

  61. Jim W. Dean  October 28, 2011 at 8:11 pm

    Dear folks, T. Allin has not been banned from VT for his childish comments. The ‘for adults only’ rules are in effect until we get the password comment board set up.

  62. Jim W. Dean  October 28, 2011 at 8:02 pm

    Why are you perplexed? We called for a decapitation strike early on to save thousands of lives and all the destruction. And we were right !!

    It does not mean you have to like it. But we were right.

  63. Jim W. Dean  October 28, 2011 at 8:00 pm

    Go ask the New Libyan government They have the list, from a defecting Gaddafi Intel guy that wanted something trade getting better treatment, which is usual in these situations. I am sure they will stop everything they are doing just to take care of your request.

  64. Charlotte NC Bill  October 28, 2011 at 7:33 pm

    Fine points perhaps but for a look at the far-out neo-con crazy side check out http://www.thewesternexperience.com Who is the clueless wonder who runs that site?..He ( a Jason character ) and his buddy Rick showed video of Quadaffi being sodomized w/a knife and the headshot and sd “he got off easy..” And they also still buy the O’Reilly/Rush/Bush/Obama version of 9-11..

  65. C. Cook  October 28, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    Please give us the names of the bloggers or journalists who were paid $500. Accusations not backed up by hard evidence have little value. You keep making these allegations over and over, but never demonstrate any verifiable proof.

  66. RJ  October 28, 2011 at 6:40 pm

    I agree Carey. The same people who control NATO were behind 9/11 and 7/7 and they destroyed Iraq based on lies. Now Gordon and Jim are trying to portray them as heroes for liberating Libya from Gaddafi. I know it’s probably very complicated, but the logic doesn’t flow.

  67. Jim W. Dean  October 28, 2011 at 5:54 pm

    Those photoshop people can really kill you. That’s an interesting way to say thank you for a 50% debt forgiveness.

  68. Jim W. Dean  October 28, 2011 at 5:50 pm

    No it’s not about oil. Read Goron’s piece from yesterday. There is a huge glut of oil and the companies and producers are in a panic. Actually having the Libyan oil off the market has helped the other sustain their prices…which all the producers are not addicted to.

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/10/27/breaking-iran-and-israel-caught-partnering-in-attack-ploy/

  69. Jim W. Dean  October 28, 2011 at 5:42 pm

    Carey, There is not one iota to substantiate that claim. You dynamic is frustration over bad guys you can’t get at, so you tag them with whatever you arbitrarily can.

    I used Uri for this because he has such a spotless record as a peace activist. But that just bounced off of you. That’s what bias does to people. Anger replaces thing. In the Intel biz you would not last a day operating like that.

    And you need to get off the blame the Zios for everything kick. There are people ‘running the Zios’ and you don’t know more than one or two names you would recognize. We are going to have to smarten up to beat these folks.

    Uri has been to more protest than everybody who will read this post. Why do you think I am featuring him? I am testing to see if folks think their opinion and knowledge is equal to his.

    BTW, by shill we mean those getting paid to get article placement, even on blogs…where they paid $500. People were tripping over each other to get that money…and get some licks in at the same time.

    That is the dynamic. They know more about how your mind works than you do. They get paid for knowing.They get punished for mistakes…another dynamic.

  70. Jim W. Dean  October 28, 2011 at 5:28 pm

    Uri won’t comment. He’s 85…beyond proving himself.

    I had shortened my lead in by cutting a paragraph which said that everything that I have seen from unbiased sources is that he had about 20% supporting him, and hence the repression structure needed to keep the 80% in line. Any yes, part of that was continuing to get their checks.

    As for the big crowds in Tripolo that was brutal. You either showed up or it was your ass. And if you were even there and did not look enthusiastic enough, the security people in the crowd would pick you up and take you in for some attitude adjustment.

    You can bounce all over on why this and not this happened and there is a very simple answer which you are smart enough to know. Each situation has it’s own dynamics. Personally, I would have lots a huge amount of money betting that the UN would never have backed going in…because Russia and China would torpedo the security council vote.

    So that shows what a genius I am…and humble me. And when I saw that the no training and tactics improvements of the rebels, even after months…I was worried that the NATO strategy of generating a coup could very easily not happen.

    Gaddafi was doing a rope-a-dope strategy, also evidenced by the PR he was buying on the Right and the Left. When you have the Rudi Guilani team on the job along with the anti-imperialist Left, you know the professionals are a work and they do have a budget.

    And I would have lost another big bet that Tripoli would have made a much tougher defense. On the night the rebels came in from the west they had nothing really set up to nail them. There were no IED’s along the main routes….not ambush kill box zones, etc. This stuff is all ‘how to defend a city’ 101.

    All I can think of is that the professional army was dreaming that the civilian defense force was going to be cannon fodder for the rebels so they could counter attack and claim victory. And then they would hope lots of civilians would be killed and there would be world outrage on NATO.

  71. HP  October 28, 2011 at 5:18 pm

    Bravo, Ryan. I’m perplexed at vets today jumping on the Hillary bandwagon. Que passa?

  72. Steve  October 28, 2011 at 4:47 pm

    Uri Avnery and his opinions certainly deserve respect, and Gaddafi had done more than enough to earn his fate, but there is plenty of credible evidence that he had a fair bit of support from some sectors of Libyan society, in certain tribes towns and classes, there are still (Libyan) people being quoted to that effect in Western mainstream articles, and talk of revenge etc. He obviously also had a lot who either hated or just didn’t care for him, especially in places like Benghazi and Misrata, and with NATO/Qatari support it was enough to topple him though only with 8 months of fighting and nearly 10000 air strikes, without which it wouldn’t have happened. For some reason most of the commentary on this issue generally seems overly skewed one way or the other, the truth lies in between.

  73. PersianAdvocate  October 28, 2011 at 4:41 pm

    “it’s all about oil”, meaning that the incentive for military invention is the conveyance of the ownership of oil production and revenue therefrom. Not necessarily referring to the grander details of affecting crude oil price speculation or that the oil and refinement of it would somehow be different.

    You guys are connected… TOO connected 😉 😉

  74. PersianAdvocate  October 28, 2011 at 4:32 pm

    SITE couple?

  75. Carey  October 28, 2011 at 4:31 pm

    I don’t consider myself a “shill”. I’m conservative, NOT Republican. IMO this war was about the US “stealing” the resources of another country, and furthering neocon zionist PNAC plans. Maybe one day when Bush Sr. and the REST of his clan is gone, along with the Clintons, we can get our Republic back. In the meantime, we march down the Zionist road to oblivion.

  76. Carey  October 28, 2011 at 4:18 pm

    Again from Gordon, it’s a LEFTIST “plot” to speak well of Gaddafi. Regardless of his past, many of the people in his country were better off today than Americans are TODAY. The main point, though, is that the U.S. and UN attacked Libya and all those other mid-east countries WITHOUT provocation, regardless of the menace you want to make of him.

    He did NOT do Lockerbie — that was the result of the USS Vincennes shooting down an Iranian airliner with 290 people onboard, so Iran hired a Syrian terrorist group for $10M to do Lockerbie. The plane departed late, or it would have exploded over water as planned. Of course, that particular flight was used by the CIA for drug-running as well. U.S. Sec Baker knew all this and paid a visit to Iran to keep everything quiet after NSA intercepted a cable. That was in 1988. I have come to the conclusion that the government does nothing but LIE, LIE, LIE. Everything coming out of Washington should be discounted right off the bat.

    Secondly, the so-called “rioters” in Libya were CIA/Mossad/Brit SAS (some were caught dressed as Arabs).
    The whole thing was a “set-up” by the U.S. and UN and the zionist bankers Rothschilds/Rockefeller toward their NWO. Gaddafi has squelched the entire uprising and was mopping up the last remnants when Zionist Sen Lieberman, McCain, and Lindsay Graham went on every TV channel jumping up and down for a NO-FLY ZONE, “knowing” that the ultimate target was the long-time PNAC plans. Hillary repeated over and over through all those months that Gaddafi “had to go”. As far as I’m concerned, the US using the UN as cover was the aggressor.

    We can’t AFFORD war after war to satisfy Israel and its Zionist war-monger protectors the Rothschild/Rockefeller bankers, much less the $6 billion annual foreign aid they get and all those new “salvaged” airplane engines and parts their benefactors the Pentagon gives them. Perhaps they would like to send THEIR children to fight all these wars they instigate and finance BOTH sides of (to include Hitler, the War between the States, and all others). And they can use their personal wealth and TAX-FREE FOUNDATIONS to pay for them, rather than the poor 99% taxpayers.

  77. Brian  October 28, 2011 at 4:01 pm

    From Uri: There can be no doubt any more that the vast majority of the Libyan people detested Gaddafi and welcomed the NATO campaign that helped to remove him.

    Brian: I would really like to believe that, perhaps Uri can provide some evidence. I’ve seen a lot of quotes on the Internet by Libyans who detested the NATO bombings, they thought the bombings killed innocent civilians, destroyed portions of towns and terrified people. The quotes were provided by notable journalists. Yes, perhaps these journalists were paid by Gaddafi stooges and the Libyans they quoted are not real. Oh my.

    A lot of people praise Uri but I like evidence.

    From Uri: THE OBAMA administration was clever enough to jump on the bandwagon of the Arab revolutions, though at the very last moment.

    Brian: Obama didn’t establish a no-fly zone over Bahrain or Gaza. he didn’t try to stop Saudi Arabia from helping the Bahrain government torture and kill a large number of peaceful protesters. It was not a Sunni versus Shia problem. Oops! we have a military base in Bahrain.

    I did like some of Uri’s comments.

  78. Gordon Duff  October 28, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    Not wanting to speak ill of that which does not yet exist, but last time Uri spoke out, he was attacked as both an antisemite and a “filthy Jew.”

    Best part of it, of course, is that the attacks came from the same IP address.

    I might call it a plot. More likely a couple that is “deeply conflicted.”

    g

  79. Tom Valentine  October 28, 2011 at 3:26 pm

    Impressive presentation, thanks. The coverage of the Libyan saga has been everything except satisfactory, Uri has a new fan.

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