A Tale of Two Flags

150th Anniversary - War Between the States

by Jim W. Dean

with sesquicentennial guest commentary by Steve Scroggins

It is my pleasure to introduce VT readers to my old friend Steve Scroggins, a fellow founding member of the Georgia Heritage Council, its long time webmaster, researcher/writer and satirist extraordinaire.

GHC was founded to take more of a big tent approach to the heritage/culture wars heating up around the country. We correctly sensed the old ‘divide and conquer’ game was in full swing with some ulterior motives involved.

The ensuing devastation that the country has incurred proved us right. Most never saw it coming. We warned…’They want it all’, and were described sometimes as hysterical. The wealth of an entire generation of Americans was stolen. Hysterical? You bet.

Veterans Today is not a canary in the mine shaft, but hundreds of them. We also see things coming and do not whisper our concerns. The new website has had a great response and we thank you all. Our depth and breadth will continue to grow and hopefully we will have Steve on board soon as I can promise you he has a lot to share.

The Sesquicentennial is getting a yawn from most of the Yankee States. There are multiple reasons of course…no personal connection, no battlefields, and no cemeteries with 10,000 dead Yankee in them like the one I was at on Memorial Day, Marietta cemetery, with its 3000 unknowns. All were honored.

When the dead and the ghosts are all around you, it’s easier not to forget. Jim W. Dean …Heritage TV – Atlanta

New York’s Sesquicentennial Observance – Commentary by Steve Scroggins


In one of my favorite movies of all time, Lonesome Dove (based on a series of novels by Larry McMurtry), a lead character named Gus McRae (played by Robert Duval) had a fitting line.

After one of their cattle hands (fittingly enough a young Irish immigrant) had just been killed after falling into a swarming group of water moccassins in the Nueces River in southern Texas while trying to cross a herd of cattle on an historic drive from Texas to Montana. The line was… “I God, Woodrow, it’s a bad start.”

McRae, speaking to his partner Woodrow Call, was referring to the beginning of their long journey to Montana. A “bad start” is what comes to mind for this writer as he contemplates another writer’s efforts to get New Yorkers working on their Sesquicentennial observance of the War to Prevent Southern Independence.

First off, in full disclosure, I make no claim to adequate knowledge of New York state history, but I have read quite a bit on this time period in American history. The noted writer provides his own credentials:

“Bruce W. Dearstyne, Ph.D., of Guilderland, N.Y, is an adjunct professor at the University of Maryland where he was a professor for 8 years. Previously, he was a program director at the NYS Archives, served on the staff of the New York Office of State history, and taught New York and U.S. history at SUNY Potsdam, SUNY Albany, and Russell Sage College. He is the author of Railroads and Railroad Regulation in New York, 1903-1913 and co-author of New York: Yesterday and Today.”

The opening page of his website is entitled, “New York and the Civil War: It’s Time to Re-enlist — 10 Reasons Why the Sesquicentennial Is Important for Our State.” Dr. Dearstynethen opens the list with this nugget:

May 24, 2011 marks the 150th anniversary of the first Union officer killed in the Civil War. Colonel Elmer Ellsworth of Mechanicville, N.Y., was shot by an Alexandria, Virginia hotel owner after tearing down a Confederate flag flying defiantly from the hotel’s rooftop. Ellsworth’s heroic act initiated New York’s critical contribution to the war. New York was first among the states in troops (over 400,000), casualties (more than 46,000), war materiel production, and financial support.

I noted this story entitled, Local war hero celebrated 150 years after his death, a few days ago on a New York TV station website. Local hero? Given their efforts at the Ethnic Cleansing of Dixie in recent years, we’re surprised that the NAACP hasn’t declared Ellsworth a national hero and sought to make his martyrdom a national holiday.

OK, so let’s look at the bare facts. This Ellsworth they are deeming a “local hero” was offended by the “defiant” display of a Confederate flag.

So he went trespassing on another man’s property (the hotel) in another state that had legally declared itself independent, which just happened to be within eyesight of Washington, D.C., and stole the owner’s flag.  And he was shot and killed for his efforts.

And given the tensions at that time (Lincoln’s declared intent to make war, Virginia’s secession in protest after said declaration)…Ellsworth certainly had to know that venturing into Virginia to steal someone’s flag was a risky, if not foolhardy, undertaking.

Colonel Elmer Ellsworth

But he’s given credit for not sending some lowly subordinate to do it. How noble. The incident does give new meaning to Virginia’s state seal and state motto: “Sic Semper Tyrannis”… “Thus Always to Tyrants.”

The seal, which shows a defender with sword and spear standing astride a prone tyrant, is shown affixed to the Proclamation from Virginia’s Governor John Letcher in response to Lincoln’s appeal for troops with which to invade the South. As we noted tongue-in-cheek at the time on Facebook, “Slipping… We used to defend our Confederate flags with more passion.”
I’ll concede that homicide is perhaps an excessive response to such a theft — but we are reminded that it is the person who renders force necessary who has started the fight.

But the larger point here is that New York is putting forth this swaggering Yankee thief Ellsworth as a hero, the first Union Officer killed during the war. I’m almost speechless. Almost.

When you think about it, it does seem fitting that the first Union officer killed should be killed for stealing private property…and for having the audacity to think he was right in doing so. It seems the perfect allegory, the perfect parable for the morality play that was the war and it stands as a superior reason to start the war compared to Fort Sumter in which no one was killed by Confederate fire.

Two yankee soldiers were killed AFTER the surrender, but they were killed in an accidental explosion as they prepared to fire a cannon salute to their flag as they lowered it to leave Fort Sumter. Tragic ignorance writ large. We tipped our hat to author Thomas DiLorenzo back on April 12th, when he noted on the LewRockwell.com blog about the 150th Anniversary that:

  • Fort Sumter Death Toll: 1 horse, no humans
  • Death Toll From Lincoln’s Response to Fort Sumter: 670,000 humans (including 50,000 Southern civilians); thousands of horses

With Ellsworth’s death, now we have a solid begin date –May 24, 1861– to put on Sherman’s Vandalism. In the end, that really summarizes the entire war effort. The Southern states were looted, burned and robbed for the financial benefit of the northern states…but the soldiers who carried out the crime were simply miffed because the Southern states were…”defiant.” They were offended that the Southern states exercised their right to self-government and self determination and they were determined—-at whatever the cost—- to force the South to bend to their preferences.

Dr. Dearstyne goes on to note that at least forty (40) Union generals hailed from New York including John A. Dix who is noted to be a former senator and future governor, and who was Secretary of the Treasury in 1861. According to Dearstyne, Dix telegraphed Treasury agents in New Orleans: “If any one attempts to haul down the American flag, shoot him on the spot.”

Oh! So, it’s OK to shoot people in New Orleans who might be offended by U.S. Flags… but if someone shoots a New Yorker in Alexandria, Virginia, for stealing flags, they risk creating a martyr. Hmmm… Appointed a general in the Union army, Dix adds to his heroic resume by arresting pro-Confederate members of the Maryland state legislature to prevent a vote on secession, negotiating prisoner exchange with a Confederate general, and commanding federal troops in suppressing the 1863 draft riot, and “working effectively withNew York City officials to organize peaceful resumption of the draft a month later.”

Col. Ellsworth - Shot by Jackson

Of course, Dearstyne didn’t mention the many deaths of civilians, immigrants and various citizens who died as a result of the “order” Dix restored. In the end, recruiting immigrants off-the-boat to go south and loot another country resumed to D.C.’s satisfaction. The New York Draft Riots did illustrate that many in the North and, in New York in particular, were not in agreement with Lincoln’s war policies or goals. It also illustrates that Lincoln was willing to use brutal force to suppress any dissent.

Arresting state legislators without legal cause or due process and killing civilians rioting over the draft…wow! Dix had some tough assignments, I’ll give him that. Perhaps he should have paused and reflected on his ultimate moral duty. Robert E. Lee faced similar assignments, had he remained in the U.S. Army, but Lee resigned rather than accept orders to carry out an illegal and immoral war against fellow Americans and citizens of his native state in order to suppress their rights. There’s little doubt, at least for this writer, as to which serves as the better moral example.

In Dearstyne’s defense, he does mention Erastus Corning and other New Yorkers who protested the draft and the arrest of civilians (after suspension of habeas corpus) by the Lincoln horde of loyalty brownshirts. He mentions New York City’s mayor who suggested that NYC should secede (we note the irony here) from the state and form an independent city apart from D.C. rule. He mentions the criticisms of the Emancipation Proclamation.

We should explore all these aspects in more detail. We should applaud Dearstyne’s efforts to generate New Yorker interest in the sesquicentennial and New York’s role in the war. Any effort to understand the facts and the truth is commendable, but given the majority of what the north and New York put forward as “heroic” and as “heroes”… we can understand why New York’s enthusiam is lacking.

What Dearstyne calls New York’s “modesty” would more properly be called shame. Or is it just confidence that “might makes right?” And, perhaps they just don’t want to gloat since their armies won the war…ignoring, of course, that ALL Americans lost liberties…and that the voluntary Republic our Founders gave us was destroyed by their efforts. War is always a terrible waste.

It is perhaps cliche to say that “Freedom isn’t free” but as we reflect on the sacrifices of our veterans this Memorial Day, it is fitting that we remember this most terrible of our wars. In human terms, it cost more American lives (620,000+ soldiers and 50,000+ civilians) than in all our other wars combined. It is remembrance of these soldiers that inspired the traditions that led to Memorial Day observances of various flavors in the South and across the country…notably at Arlington Cemetery, land stolen by the U.S. Government from Robert E. Lee and his heirs.

To honor all those Americans who made the ultimate sacrfice, we should resolve to put forth our best efforts and energies to prevent such sacrifice in the future and to restoring the liberties we have let slip away or be ripped away in the last 150 years. We owe it to our ancestors and to our posterity.

“[I]t wasn’t because our fathers knew what they were fighting for that they were heroes. They didn’t know what they were fighting for, exactly, and they fought on anyway. That’s what made them heroes.” —New York Commander of the Sons of Union Veterans, as quoted by James M. McPherson in his 1994 book, What They Fought For, 1861-1865Why the Terrible Destruction of the Civil War? – by Jeff Riggenbach

“Northern soldiers by and large said they were fighting to preserve what their ancestors had bequeathed to them: the Union. Southern soldiers also referred to their ancestors, but they typically argued that the real legacy of the Founding Fathers was not so much the Union as the principle of self-government. Very often we see Southern soldiers comparing the South’s struggle against the U.S. government to the colonies’ struggle against Britain. Both, in their view, were wars of secession fought in order to preserve self-government.” —Thomas Woods, Jr., from Politically Incorrect Guide to American History

“But slavery was far from being the sole cause of the prolonged conflict. Neither its destruction on the one hand, nor its defence on the other, was the energizing force that held the contending armies to four years of bloody work. I apprehend that if all living Union soldiers were summoned to the witness-stand, every one of them would testify that it was the preservation of the American Union and not the destruction of Southern slavery that induced him to volunteer at the call of his country. As for the South, it is enough to say that perhaps eighty percent of her armies were neither slave-holders, nor had the remotest interest in the institution. No other proof, however, is needed than the undeniable fact that at any period of the war from its beginning to near its close the South could have saved slavery by simply laying down its arms and returning to the Union.” –General John B. Gordon, from Reminiscences of the Civil War, page 19

“The Gettysburg speech was at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history… The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determination – that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves.” –H.L. Mencken [emphasis added]

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40 Responses to "A Tale of Two Flags"

  1. Chris Clark  July 12, 2011 at 7:05 pm

    Wow Jim you still beating this dead horse? Cleaning out my old mail and remembered how much fun it was reading your new lies on the old history. You know we should get together sometime take a walk, discuss things, we can bring my dogs along as well. Their names are Cracker, Peckerwood, and Snoopy. Stop by my house sometime, the address is 21st Century!

  2. Lem G.  June 22, 2011 at 9:26 am

    States rights versus a strong central federal government. Independent currency floating around from above and below the Mason-Dixon line with little trust in its value once you travel out of the state or region that issued it.
    As a dyed in the wool Yankee ( both baseball and Union ) & veteran of VN & Desert Storm, I am currently writing a book on my experiences as a veteran and musician who wrote, performed and performed on behalf of military families nationwide since 1975.
    “SOUTHERN” culture does not include ignoring the truth about the Confederate Flag and its connotations from the early 1930’s when it and the Nazi flag were paraded around the streets of Washington DC from Klan members and US supporters of the fascist/racist regime of the Third Reich.
    White supremacists STILL use those flags as their symbols.
    Southern independence smacks of the antebellum approach to a simpler time when minorities
    “knew their place”. Preach all the rhetoric you want, Sons of the Confederacy – your past will haunt
    you through the Civil Rights movement I am researching and writing about as we speak. Deny the lynchings, the churches in Birmingham bombed, the murders during the movement and tell me they are only aberrations. Your flag was the symbol of the KKK, corrupt police forces, thugs and inter-state terrorism. Regionalism and states rights are all well and good to espouse in the safety of the present.
    Your past teaches us otherwise. DENIAL is an unbecoming trait.

    • Jim W. Dean  July 12, 2011 at 12:17 pm

      Lem, You don’t have to write anything. It’s already been done. You are just trotting out the same ole’, same ole’ tired, sanctimonious propaganda. Let’s see, you have the Klan, Nazis and facists all in one sentence. Are you sure you weren’t talking to Jesse Jackson or Abe Foxman before you wrote this?

      We will always have anti-Southern bigots among us, along with all the other kinds. They all deserve an equal share of the contempt these deserve, but personally I like to save a little extra for the sanctimonious ones, as it is more fun.

      The 30’s Klan Mr. Historian was based up North. The southern wing at that time were Johnny come latelies. And the biggest DC march the Klan ever had was a sea of American flags…used as props for as many different reasons as used car dealers do.

      Here is a recent duet piece I did with Uri Avnery, the infamous Israeli pease activist (media ban on him over there though). It nails you to a tee…called “Instilled Memory”…your tasteless comments would make you a poster child for it. Please enjoy.

      By the way. I am from Massachusetts, the state that wanted to seceed during the War of 1812 and join Canada with some of the other New England State. And yes, New England ports reprovisioned British ships during a war…that love for the dollar. NE farmers even took beef up to Canada to feed the Brit troops there.


      As for White Supremacists…that is a media mirage. We go years down here and never see one. It’s a political psy ops term. Oh…were have air heads and people with their heads up their butts, but we don’t call them white supremacists because we have enough street smarts to not be manipulated like that. We don’t belive in the boogeyman and the tooth fairy either, but I understand a lot of folks do.

  3. Bill  June 14, 2011 at 8:14 pm

    Exactly Ethan Allen! You’ve hit the right vein! Along the same lines; if the U.S. Federal govt had no business deciding who would run the C.S.A. ( or meddle in it’s affairs in any way ) then it CERTAINLY has no business meddling in the affairs of Iraq,Iran,Lebanon,Syria,Egypt or Libya and trying to dictate who should run those countries…

  4. Tim Zerr  June 14, 2011 at 6:35 pm

    There has to be mass non-violent demonstrations and boycotts and strikes. People will have to organize and cooperate. The National Guard and local police have to stay away and not be allowed to be mobilized by the scared politicians. Egypt got this far. If we cant are we not as evolved as them? They have been at it a hell of alot longer then the US. The problem is that the scared Wash. politicians and State politicians will declare martial law and then the violent roots of this countries founding could be played out again. This is what is feared by many. What are you willing to risk?

  5. ethanallen  June 14, 2011 at 3:51 pm

    There are a lot of interesting comments here. I would like to suggest however that perhaps we are looking at things the wrong way. In the infamous Dred Scott decision, Chief Justice Taney wrote that slaves or their descendants had “no rights which the white man was bound to respect.” Now let’s jump to the 21st Century. Today we’re all slaves or descendants of slaves. We have no rights which our government, a virtual corporate dictatorship, is bound to respect. We are no longer guaranteed habeas corpus. We are not guaranteed learning the charges against us, the right to an attorney and private conversations with our attorney should we get one, or the right to a hearing. We have no right of redress against totally arbitrary and indefinite imprisonment. If the previous doesn’t get your attention then this will: We have no right to life itself. Both the current and the previous administration have claimed the power to order the murder of a US citizen anywhere in the world and have ordered such murder done. If Chief Justice Taney could look at us now what would he say? Probably that 21st Century Americans “have no rights which the corporate dictatorship is bound to respect.”

    In the Declaration of Independence there are noble phrases. …endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights…life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness…whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government. Well, that’s what we need to do but this time peacefully and more thoroughly. Peacefully in the way Czechoslovakia became the Czech Republic and Slovak Republic. More thoroughly in that we must form at least 8 republics out of the remains of our beloved, but murdered, American Republic. The current huge government apparatus that grew and grew and grew ostensibly to protect our liberties has in fact snuffed them out. There are a lot of hurdles to overcome, but we’ve overcome far greater.


    • Jim W. Dean  June 15, 2011 at 11:21 am

      Amen Ethan, This is why were are digging back to some of the old history to review how the process got started…how the old divide and conquer game is still being played on us, as brother Chris so eloquently displayed. They have us divided up in all these one issue categories so we as less able to work closely together on the key issues and threats facing us today.

      And one of the cheapest divide and conquer con jobs is this North/South stuff…and who should wear the hair shirt for slavery, etc. It’s nice to see the trend of more and more people not being zombies, and recognizing that our only chance is to work together better, even if you are a Red Sox fan and think Texas barbecue is real barbecue 🙂

  6. Tim Zerr  June 14, 2011 at 7:36 am

    We can all cherry pick different “facts” from history to try and make it look like, as Bob Dylan wrote, we have “God On Our Side” while more and more others die. Others who we perceive as less then, different then or in need of “Gods” wrath which you then take into your own hands and start or feed the War Machine which is currently going on by this country and others with God On Our Side. Many folks who have Confederate Soldiers in their ancestory have told me that those ancestors were drafted or indoctrinated much like we Vietnam Vets were in the 50s and 60s. They fought hard and bravely but just like us, ignorantly for the politicians, the generals, and the wealthy land owners. Most of them did not have slaves and were damn near slaves themselves to the wealthy land owners. What if just the generals, the politicians and the wealthy land owners were to fight each other and the rest of us ordinary folks were left out of their violence?

    • Marc C. Daniele  June 14, 2011 at 3:43 pm

      That’s a very good idea, but that will NEVER happen when there are EXPENDABLE people like us around!

  7. 11bravo  June 13, 2011 at 11:46 pm

    I am originally from the North but I have to side with the South on this one. I actually have a confederate flag on display in my home.

    Let us put one thing to rest. As pointed out already slavery is not only evil, it is stupid from a capitalist point of view. Wage slavery where you through the person on the street to starve when his labor is no longer profitable is much more intelligent.

    But, alas, the war was not fought to free slaves. It was fought so that northern banks and industrialists could impose their will on the south. Southern farmers did not fight for slaves they did not own. Nor did northern farmers and workers fight to free black people. Lincoln’s intention was to send freed slaves to Liberia but that proved too expensive so he gave freed slaves forty acres and a mule instead. Unfortunately reconstruction turned many whites against the Blacks and they never got a chance even though they were very hard working. What the North did in Reconstruction is exactly what Brenner did in Iraq and look how well that worked out.

    As far as Africans and the slave trade is concerned I have visited the sites in Benin, Ghana and Senegal used to export the slaves. Benin and Ghana have yearly ceremonies to ask for forgiveness and to welcome back the descendants of slaves. All these sites are world heritage sites including Gorée island but the Senegalese have yet to confess their forefathers roll in the trade.

    Winners always write the history books. They have taught us the war was over slavery. I wish we could get beyond the Black vs. White thing. Part of my ancestry is Greek. I get along with both Italians (Romans) and Turks (Ottomans). The other half is Hessian and English and my Great Great Grand Father lost a leg at Anteitem. I’m an American. I wish I were true blooded southerner too.

    • Marc C. Daniele  June 14, 2011 at 3:46 pm

      That was very well said “11bravo”!

    • Jim W. Dean  June 15, 2011 at 9:26 am

      Bravo, Thanks for the input. You taught me something. I did not know these folks asked for forgiveness at these ceremonies. I guess the NAACP attendee (if one ever goes) left this out of his report.

      Comments like this, people sharing/adding good info to spread around is what makes the comment sections worth spending time on. There are the folks that just come here to wee wee on your shoes, some kind of repressed personality disorder I suspect. But we try to keep it as open as we can.

      And you are a true blooded Southerner as that is something that you have in your heart. And to think with your lineage, all that multiculturalism, there are more than a few folks who would ignore it all and condense you down to a ‘white dude’. Hopefully we are opening up minds here….and we do see it, which keeps us all volunteering to do this. Jim Dean…half Polish/Russian 🙂

  8. Marc C. Daniele  June 13, 2011 at 9:40 pm

    Mr Dean, and Mr. Allen,
    I wanted to thank you for taking action in the issue I pointed out to you!
    All to often double standards concerning things like this are allowed to continue to happen, and all to often over the vary truth! It’s always easier to discredit the person making the comment than the actual facts!
    To explain what I mean a little better,
    I have tried to tell my fellow Americans the REAL TRUTH about certain issues such as 9/11, the phony “War on Terror”, the USS Liberty, The Lavon Affair, how veterans ARE NOT being taken care of by our government, The Federal Reserve Bank, etc., and have actually been banned from sites like Yahoo News, and MSN for “innaproppriate content”! Yet in those same news stories, etc. I am commenting to, I have actually been threatened, and my name, service to my country, etc. have wrongfully been smeared, and nothing is done to those people because our mainstream media is “controlled”, and the REAL TRUTH is not allowed to be spoken because it proves the true hypocracy of our present day nation! Not to mention the alterior motives involved!
    I can still go to new news stories on the mentioned sites, and see the same people “Trolls” doing the same things that they did to me, to others, and nothing whats-so-ever is done about it! In-fact they work in actual shift to do this smearing, etc.!
    I am not saying that the civil war was a good thing for anyone, but I also have a right to my own opinion, and especially when I do not use a racial epithet to do it like this Chris Clark did!
    I do know that there were more issues involved in the civil war than slavery, but most people are too ignorant to see that for themselves because it’s easeir to just say it was all about slavery, and be done with it! Just like most people do with the issues we face today, and the fact that people are not way more upset about what is really going on!
    Thank you again!

    America First, Always!
    Reinstate the US Constitution!
    Support Our Troops, and Veterans!
    Remember the USS Liberty!

    US Army Veteran,
    Marc C. Daniele
    Herculaneum, Mo.

  9. Tim Zerr  June 13, 2011 at 8:53 pm

    I am not a historian but I am a combat veteran who knows the cost of violent over-reaction to misunderstandings, inability to compromise, believing in the right to kill over the theft of a flag, ignorance and war started by politicians, generals and land owners or multinational coorporations. Its us ill-educated working class stiffs that end up taking the brunt of your arrogance and righteous violence. And its the civilians caught in the crossfire or the rampant violence of the out of control soldiers and/or their leaders. Trying to fight the Civil War with your side being right is like trying to find rightousness in the Vietnam War and its 2 millions deaths. Thats right, close to 2 million, not just 60,000. We are all human beings capable of better then what you have written.

    • Bill  June 13, 2011 at 9:24 pm

      If Lincoln had compromised there would have been NO war and no hostilities…When SC seceded fm the Union Ft. Sumter legally became the property of the C.S.A. Lincoln should have saved whatever he could easily save w/o much, if any, bloodshed and should have accepted the secession of the rest…I like tariffs high enough to give US industry an advantage in the American market…but not as high as Lincoln’s tariffs..Still the agrarian non-industrial South felt shafted by all of that…Resented the self-rightousness of their Northern cousins…The 1860 Presidential election was bizarre..As I recall ( help me Mr Dean if I forgot ) but Lincoln and Douglas were basically the candidates in the North and upper Mid-west and weren’t even on the ballot in much of the South ( certainly Lincoln wasn’t ) And in the South the election was between…was it Burns and Breckenridge? I mean it was like two separate presidential elections…Secession simply acknowledged what was…

    • Bill  June 14, 2011 at 5:18 am

      Breckenridge and Bell were essentially the candidates in the South…Lincoln and Douglas were the candidates for the rest of the country…bizarre…A war to “save the Union..” That’s like saying you have to beat your wife to save your marriage…Well, if you have to do that then…..What a horrible waste.

  10. Veterans Today  June 13, 2011 at 5:39 pm

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    Thank You
    John P. Allen, VT General Manager

  11. Marc C. Daniele  June 13, 2011 at 4:51 pm

    I would appreciate it if you at VT would either have a talk with Chris Clark, or ban him from the site altogether for his racist remark, “Cra**er! I also think this person owes me and others a wiritten appology before he ever be allowed to write any further comments on this site!
    I am sick and tired of the double standard of not saying the “N” word, but “Cra**er” can be said with impunity!
    It is evey bit as offensive to me, and many, many others!
    Thank you!

    Marc C. Daniele

    • Chris Clark  June 13, 2011 at 6:06 pm

      This is incredible a veterans newsletter is giving neo confederate revisionism ‘air time’ and the ******** (fill in your favorite stereotypical term for caucasion undereducated racist from mostly rural areas below the Mason Dixon line ) who don’t think slavery is wrong are offended. I probably should be banned, sorry I didn’t know this site was for white guys that fondly long for the days of personal ownership of people of a different skin pigmentation.

    • Jim W. Dean  June 13, 2011 at 7:33 pm


      Nice try guy but the racist smear does not work here. That is old school. And we are not Neo-Confederates. That is a cute N-word that some Madison Avenue came up with to give the bully crowd something that can remember. Do you really think that veterans are going to be intimidated with a below the belt shot?

      I have not read everything here but I don’t remember anything about ‘don’t think slavery is wrong’. That is another standard smear ploy, to infer something that was not said. Ah…that’s an old, too.

      No one said anything about longing for the old days. You are just OD’ing on your moral supremacy when you are acting like a bully. Do you have any idea how many times we have seen this cheap shot???
      It ranks down there with ‘don’t hire a vet, because you know only losers go into the military.’

      But please don’t leave until you have read The Slave Trade and come back with a book report. There was plenty of guilt to go around back then, just like there is today. So the pin the tail on the Southen donkey game is not going to work. You need to find some weaker people to attempt to intimidate.

    • Marc C. Daniele  June 13, 2011 at 9:48 pm

      This is not much of an apology for the clear cut racial/hate term you used! None of us did this!
      And just so you know, take a look at my comment above as to where I live!
      Your opinion would have been perfectly fine, like anyone else’s, had you not used a wrongful racial/hate term to state it!

      Marc C. Daniele

  12. Marc C. Daniele  June 13, 2011 at 4:26 pm

    Well said Mr. Dean!
    My ancestors came here after the civil war, but I am every bit as American as anybody else. Even got hurt in the line of duty while serving in the US Army! My Veterans cap has a Confederate Flag on it! My Army Jacket has a Confederate Flag on it! If I wear an Old Glory pin, etc., I usually wear it upside down now!
    My point is that ignorant people still want to say that the civil war was ONLY about slavery, but most if not all do not even know who brought the slaves here, etc., and that is was more about states rights, and self government, which we definitely do not have now!
    Americans need to wake up!

    America First, Always!
    Restore the Constitution!
    Support Our Troops!
    Remember the USS Liberty!

    US Army Veteran, and Proud Rebel,
    Marc C. Daniele
    Herculaneum, Mo. (Rebel State, all be it by proxy)

    • Erica Stuart  June 13, 2011 at 10:25 pm

      Marc, not arguing the issues in the article and comments. We are in such a mess now we need to concentrate how to get out of this mess. BUT I have an obsession on meaning of words and how they are used. You mention your support of State Rights then you conclude with “America first always” fully agree but what part of the American continent are you referring to—because America,if used to imply the USA, only exist as a Federal entity.

    • Marc C. Daniele  June 14, 2011 at 3:31 pm

      I am referring to “America”, as the USA, as the country I was taught it was supposed to be in school, under the US Constitution! The one I was willing to give my life for in the US Army, and not the country it is today that supports another “State” on the mediterrain sea over it’s very own citizens, and countries own best interests! Who’s Elected Officials cower to this other “States” leader at AIPAC while continuing to lie to it’s own people, and screwing them daily! I could go on and on about what I mean about this, but you should get my point!
      I hope this clears this up for you, if not let me know! Maybe I have mistated this, and should just use USA only? You tell me.

      Just to let you know I have even had “Homeland Security” come to my home because of comments I have made about 9/11, The Lavon Affair, The King David Hotel Bombings, The Dancing Israeli’s, Building 7, The USS Liberty, Dr Alan Sabrosky, The Federal Reserve Bank, The phony War on Terror, etc., etc., but I WILL NOT back down! No “State” that deliberty attacks us like this one has, and continues to, and committs the crime against humanity that it does daily is an “ALLI” of my country, no matter what the WHORES in Washington DC say! The USA of today is not the country I was raised to believe in, or was willing to give my life for! That’s another reason I say what I do about the Confederacy. At least they were trying to keep their own rights!

      Also, Veterans in this country are treated so bad by our Government/VA, and our so called Elected Officials that DO NOT really care about them, but when Veterans speak out about it, or other things that go against what this country is supposed to stand for, they are labled as extremists, and possible lone wolf terrorist, and then monitored, as I know first hand! This is fact! Don’t believe me?

      Take a good look at the Homeland Security Report from April 2009! And the bad thing is none of the WHORES in Washington DC would be willing to give thier lives for this country! Not to mention that they swear an Oath to the US Constitution, yet destroy it any chance they can with illegal, missnamed laws like the “Patriot Act”! These Elected Officials are too busy lining their own pockets, being pedifiles, and committing adultry, etc. to actually run our country! Don’t believe me? That’s fine, but at least go see for yourself!

  13. Jim W. Dean  June 13, 2011 at 3:46 pm

    This Southern traitor stuff is just a Neo N-word by folks who like to get their jollies off playing moral superiorty. That did went out in the nineties. Have you maybe been overseas or someplace???

    The slavery system was brought here by the Africans who sold their people, but somehow that always gets left out of the story. Call the NAACP for me will ya and thank them for all they did to fight slavery in Africa last year. The will not know what you are talking about…their doing anything about it. I’ve already done this, but I want you to have the pleasure.

    And ask them if they have found any photos from Africa of their ‘We’re sorry for selling our people into Slavery Day’. I just know that has to be a major event over there every year…but somebody is hiding all pictures and video. I am dying to do a story on it.

    The New England slave traders brought them here, and where many of the New England blue blood fortunes were made. They bought, transported and sold all the white slaves that the market would bear, including kids, too. But that little gem has been airbrushed out. (See: They were White and They were Slaves…by Michael Hoffman.)

    Confederates have officially been American veterans by Act of Congress since 1958. Our gravestones come from the VA, and I was at a Memorial Day service recently where many Confederates particiapted. Nobody like you was there, and if you were, they would have thrown your ass out.

    I have footage of a black general two years earlier telling the astonished crowd that Memorial Day was really started by Confederate widows who after decorating their own graves, felt sorry for the Yankees across the street and decorated them, also. They were a little different from you, I think..their attitude I mean.

    If you are ever in Atlanta you are invited to go a few rounds in front of the TV camera. I haven’t had any Confederates are traitors exercise in…gosh…seven or eight years. I need the practice. Roasting obnoxious Yankees in public is still a sport down here.

    This is genearally a site for those with knowledge wanting to share it, and those seeking it. Did you get lost somewhere and end up here by mistake?. If not, here is some homework. I don’t know what your name it, but for $50 in most places you can change yours to Mr. Cheapshot. It has a distinctive ring to it.




    • Coffeecrimson  June 13, 2011 at 4:06 pm

      Who are you kidding? Slaves were sold by Africans, bought by whites and stolen by whites. The only one who doesn’t know that story has to be sick in the head. The African form of slavery was also different from the white form of slavery. Slaves could buy themselves out of slavery and their families weren’t forced to become slave. In the great USA of A they passed a law that anyone born of a slave mother was a slave. Personally, I don’t give whites credit or Africans (some of whom are so proud of not being contaminated with white blood). To me… you all suck.

    • Marc C. Daniele  June 13, 2011 at 4:33 pm

      Your ingorance is showing!

    • Jim W. Dean  June 13, 2011 at 7:13 pm

      The one book read in the Atlantic slave trade is not surprisingly, The Slave Trade, by Hugh Thomas, a Brit…25 years of research, all heavily cited. But I warn you, it’s 1200 pages. I have read mine three times. It is dog eared and with lots of yellow highlighting. This was done preparing for debates with you know who. Once they found out how much scholastic material there was that I could use…no one would debate me. In over a 100 community TV shows none of them would set foot in the studio to wipe the floor with me.

      Years ago, for what I call hypocrisy fun, I used to do stick mic interviews outside a Dollar Store about slavery and everybody was against it, for boycotts, etc. Then I asked them how they felt about slave wages, and of course all were against it. Then I would ask them to let me go through their bag and point out all the slave wages made products they had bought that day.

      A few would, who were curious, nice people. The rest….were noooottttt happy. They knew I had sandbagged them. The language they used….Whooooeee!! It did not know that lady could talk like that!!

      I have found over the years that the aggressive debaters, when faced with their postition being shredded with scholastic evidence, either get louder or leave to go find some new victims to torment. Me on the otherhand, I have learned a great deal from people I initially disagreed with something on.

      The first legal case where an indentured servant was converted over to a perpetual slave was filed and won by a black slave owner, in Virginia I believe, another one of those little items that never makes it into the school books. The early colonial courts has cases over black slave owners owning white slaves, starting of course with female white slaves. If you ever want to starve to death as a writer, try making a living writing about stuff like this 🙂

      A few years ago we had Henry Lewis Gates at an Sons of Confederate Veterans convention shooting a segment on Looking for Linclon, for PBS. We brought their TV crew into the business meeting to watch the descendents of a Black Confederate get a special reward. Brother Gates was astounded, but he had the NC State archivist, another black man, up on the podium telling the story. We had a most interesting day with Skip, and when he was leaving he graciously told us, “Fellas, I was lied to!” Now that is a guy with some class. It was one of my most enjoyable TV days.

      BTW I will start putting some of this footage up on VT starting this summer, as the hard heads all think we are making this all up, ‘to hide our guilt’. I have hundreds of hours of interviews with all kinds of real people and you will enjoy them. Heritage TV was early reality TV. I just did not know it at the time 🙂

      Frankly I would rather talk about moderan slavery as it is easier to torment the hypocrites because it is here and now, and 99 out of a100 have done nothing nor will they ever. The part they like best is the bullying part. The shrinks can tell you load about that.

      Around the 2000 period I interviewed a Boston group, the American Anti-Slavery Society ???, who was raising funds to go to Sudan to buy people out of slavery. This was a nice guy. The price starting out was $20, but of course that went up when word got out….up to $100. These folks had a lot of trouble raising money. They got nothing from the black groups here.

      When I asked them why he said it was a threat to their pity parade. And they were not interested if they could not see an angle at making some money for themselves. This was my early education of the dark side of the civil rights biz, where people’s main interest was making a living out of it.

      These were all Muslims enslaving black Christians as Muslims cannot enslave another Muslim. Again, if you want to have some fun, take a poll of a bunch of moques to get filled in on their ‘Stop Muslim Slavery of Christians’ programs fo the coming year.

      When the British began shutting the trade down a couple of the countries hired some British barristers and went to court claiming Britain was interfering in their country’s ‘cultural institutions’. I kid you not. I will be doing later articles on this and excerpt some of the Slave Trade material. It is just devastating, blowing myth after myth out of the water.

      But my favorite here is white slavery, because it is virtually unknown and the archival material has been there all along. Authors just ignored it because they did not think anyone would not to know, and they were right. As a school book seller once told me, “we just want to sell books, we don’t give a crap what’s in them.” This surprised me at first, but I got over it quick.

      But we do need to have these ‘airing sessions’ now and then. In the old days they used to argue about the earth being flat and burned people at the stake as heretics, like if they challenged the earth as the center of the universe. The South was responsibile for slavery crowd are direct descendents of these fire bugs. They like to light folks up and have a party. Yes…they walk among us.

      Ingrid Rimland has a popular piece on the Germans getting in on the official history act, and throwing folks into prison if the disagree, and their attornies, too. Most Americans don’t know anything about it. The bad guys prefer it stay that way…or they know you will come after them.


    • Marc C. Daniele  June 13, 2011 at 10:27 pm

      Mr Dean,
      I just read this comment you made, and wanted to add something.
      A few years back I was in a VA Voc Rehab program at Forrest Park Comm. College in St. Louis, Mo., and was in an English Lit. Class that had to write an essay about something we feel strongly about.
      Well just before class one day I overheard the black instructor (a PHD) talking with a black student about what he was going to write about. The student said he was going to write about slavery, and how black people should receive reperations for it! The instructor then stated flat out ” that he had no problem with receiving free money, or land for slavery”!
      This to me was wrong for a person of his stature to state this in front of other students, etc., and especially being a represenative of the school!
      Another reason I bring this up is because most black people I have talked to about this feel basically the same way, “they deserve it”! Why?
      Just like with welfare, I have heard numerous blacks state that if they need more money they will just have another child to get more welfare! This is straight from these peoples mouths, not mine, so don’t jump on me for repeating it!
      I am not at all saying all blacks are bad, etc., I am just saying this crap about reperations for slavery, and welfare is just that, crap!

      Marc C. Daniele

    • Steve  June 13, 2011 at 9:04 pm

      “you all suck.” Such erudite articulation is overwhelming. Try some perspetive:
      http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/010531.shtml — “Slavery in Perspective”

    • Chris Clark  June 13, 2011 at 4:17 pm

      Your right *”XXXXX”. Racism is back in a big way. Why would I want to go to Atlanta for anything. The south lost the war accept it, they lost because it’s cause was evil. Lying about history isn’t going to change the outcome.

      * Word removed by John P. Allen, VT General Manager, for violation of TOS and poster has been notified.

    • Marc C. Daniele  June 13, 2011 at 4:41 pm

      You know it’s not alright to call people the “N” word but Cra**er is evey bit as racist as the “N” word to a white person, so don’t use it it! I’m very insulted!

    • Bill  June 13, 2011 at 9:13 pm

      Independence is evil? Then that would make the American founding fathers….

    • Jim W. Dean  June 15, 2011 at 9:06 am

      Folks, I have consulted with my Uganda President friend, as a lot of brainwashed folks have difficulty with giving up on their Southern whipping boy on the slavery stuff. When I did my prison interviews downtown years ago, mostly gang bangers, we got into slavery, and when the moment was right I asked them what they felt about white slavery here.

      They all stopped talking, and no one said a word. Then one laughed, and then they all laughed. They thought I was putting them on. None of them knew that white people had ever been slaves, and I am assuming a few of them attended Sunday school and read the bible for a part of their lives anyway. It really drilled into me how effective the professional victimizers had been to dumb down these kids to this extent.

      I knew they would not believe me (I was sand bagging them) so I handed out preprinted cards with the following on it. They were stunned. And being street savvy kids, they knew they had been lied to.

      Uganda President Yoweri Museveni states he blames “black traitors” more than white Europeans for the 17th and 18th century slave trade. “African chiefs were the ones waging war on each other and capturing their own people and selling them,” he said. “If anyone should apologise it should be the African chiefs. We still have those traitors here even today.” – March 1998

  14. Chris Clark  June 13, 2011 at 1:54 pm

    Would the Civil War have been fought if the South didn’t base it’s economic and social system on owning other human beings? The Confederates were nothing but traitors. Slavery was an abomination and the fact it took a war to end it speaks to how evil the south was. Too bad Sherman couldn’t have marched through some more of them!

    • Steve  June 13, 2011 at 7:48 pm

      The reasons for secession are NOT the same as the reasons for war. The war was persued by Lincoln and his armies to prevent secession. The South fought simply in self defense. Lincoln and the U.S. Congress are on record stating this emphatically and repeatedly … Lincoln stating it again 16 months after the war began (in a published letter to Horace Greeley quoted below)… to the effect that “slavery is irrelevant to the war effort — it’s all about “preserving the union.” Lysander Spooner was a noted abolitionist (as was Horace Greeley)…a and Spooner saw through the yankee propaganda or the day, publishing his stinging rebuke in 1867…

      “The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: that men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals.

      No principle, that is possible to be named, can be more self-evidently false than this; or more self-evidently fatal to all political freedom. Yet it triumphed in the field, and is now assumed to be established. If it be really established, the number of slaves, instead of having been diminished by the war, has been greatly increased; for a man, thus subjected to a government that he does not want, is a slave. And there is no difference, in principle—but only in degree—between political and chattel slavery. The former, no less than the latter, denies a man’s ownership of himself and the products of his labor; and asserts that other men may own him, and dispose of him and his property, for their uses, and at their pleasure.”–Lysander Spooner, from his essay, No Treason, 1867 [emphasis added]

      “My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.” –Abraham Lincoln, from letter to Horace Greeley, Aug. 22, 1862

  15. J M Damon  June 13, 2011 at 10:26 am

    Thanks for this interesting and inspiring article.
    Lincoln was indeed a glib railroad lawyer.
    I am proud to say that all my able bodied ancestors fought for independence from the United States at the time it ceased to be a republic and became an industrial oligarchy similar to the plutocracy that we know today.
    Far from being a war to abolish slavery, the War replaced chattel slavery with wage slavery, which was more profitable since the industrialists assumed no responsibility for the welfare of workers.
    Thousands of freedmen were used as strikebreakers and then starved to death.

  16. Bill  June 13, 2011 at 6:55 am

    What makes me angry about Lincoln is that he could have saved everything he needed to save w/o initiating warfare on his brothers..Given the overwhelming resources of the US govt vs. the CSA he could have kept Md., the western part of Va., Ky, Mo. (Ok), and everything west of Tx w/o killing hardly anyone…As for the CSA they should have offered freedom to every slave and his family in exchange for military svc IMMEDIATELY. They should have also moved the capital to Atlanta which would have been less provocative and would have made Union supply/communication lines that much longer..

  17. Bill  June 13, 2011 at 6:50 am

    If they were REALLY supported by the UK then her majesty’s Navy would have at least destroyed the Union Navy ( quite as an easy feat in ’61 ) and broken the blockade on the South…The Rothschild’s wanted to destroy both North and South and Lincoln’s unnecessary war helped them do it…It’s always been in the works..When Cornwallis surrendered to Washington he told his fellow Mason that he had accomplished nothing, that his country would ultimately be controlled by international pvt banks operating out of London and that our country’s churches would teach the Jewish religion…All of which has essentially happened..

  18. Bob Loblaw Jr  June 13, 2011 at 5:19 am

    The South was supported by Britain and the Rothschild banking empire for the purpose of destroying the republic and returning it to a slave colony of the British (actually banker) empire. The bankers got their way anyway in 1913.

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